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re-engineering the EMP
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Kevor

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Kevor

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I decided to split this topic off of the discussion we had on "Combatting Loopholes - Improving Speeder abilities..."

I think most people are not too keen on making the speeder immune to EMPs. However, there seemed to be general agreement that perhaps the EMP ability of the Sapien engineer was just a little too powerful. Different ways of making it more balanced were discussed, which I have tried to summarize here:

1) Make the engineer unable to move on the same turn as they do an EMP
2) Lower the engineer's defense, so they are easier to kill
3) The effect of the EMP would be to immobilize Titan units, but they can still attack and defend.
4) The effect of the EMP would be to immobilize Titan units, but they can still defend.
5) The effect of the EMP would be to slow Titan units (e.g. halving their movement)
6) After Titan units recover from EMP, they are immune for the next 1 or 2 rounds

(I apologize if I missed anyone's ideas. Please add them!)



No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army)
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Kevor

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Kevor

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So, to get this discussion rolling, here are my opinions about this:

I would be to do (1) and perhaps (2). I have made my arguments why in the other topic, but it boils down to this: it makes sense and is internally consistent, would be easy for the Xpressed team to implement, and would help in game balance.

While I think (6) is an interesting idea, I am not sure how easy it would be to implement, and how much it would affect game balance. Some play testing would be necessary.

I don't like (3)-(5), because to me, an EMP should be all or nothing. Either a machine is knocked out or its not.

I am personally very against the idea of making any Titan units immune to EMP. I think each race's special unit should be able to affect ALL units of the race they are specialized against. (e.g. they are no plague-resistant sapien units, etc.)

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army)
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Kevor

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Kevor

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OK, I already found one idea I missed in the most recent post in the other thread...

(7) Make engineers "cooldown" after using EMP for a turn or two.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army)
5200

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5200

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A suggestion might be for the EMP to shut the Titans down for the Sapien's round, but not the additional Titan's round.

The Sapien would still get a free attack on the Titans with no counterattack and be able to reposition units. The Titan, however, would be able to move and attack normally in their round.

This would still make it quite effective and useful but wouldn't be further crippling the least mobile race in the game.
Anonymous

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What about if the Engineers EMP shuts itself down, as well as the Titans in range?
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IzzyNobre

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IzzyNobre

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The Engineers are already ridiculously easy to kill. I oppose to this nerf.
Unimarobj

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Unimarobj

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Ok...all of the support units have a defense of 0. So forget lowering their defense, you can't have a negative defense lol.
EMP equal shut down. No halfway shut down. I agree on the Kevor.
The EMP already has a cooldown period. 9 turns I believe.

I usually have no issues with engineers while playing Titans, it doesn't seem too much of an inconvenience. I mean, just deal with it. The Titans have their strengths as does every race. The EMP is to help Sapiens against them, because a tank taking on a plasma tank is toast. Marines vs. Mecha are toast. And the walker has the longest range in the game. And the titan units have great defense.

So, why not just leave it alone?
lion37

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lion37

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  Unimarobj wrote: Ok...all of the support units have a defense of 0. So forget lowering their defense, you can't have a negative defense lol.


Actually, the big problem is that its not so easy to kill engineers standing on bases or on mountains/ forests. In many games, I have the Sap player build an engineer then move 2 hexes and EMP. This means that I have to kill the engineer when its on its base. Even a fully healthy Walker or Eclipse will not do it. and an engineer with 1 health can EMP just as well as an engineer with 10 health. It is absurd that I have to get 2 walkers in place just to kill 1 engineer and stop the EMP spam. On maps like peninsula where there are 3 adjacent bases I have to get 5 or 6 walkers in place just to stop the engineer spam. Its completely unbalanced. So 1 of 2 suggestions. Either engineers get no terrain bonus or engineers with less than 5 health cannot EMP.



  Unimarobj wrote:
EMP equal shut down. No halfway shut down. I agree on the Kevor.
The EMP already has a cooldown period. 9 turns I believe.

Fine with me. But it ruins the game when EMP spam leads to shutdown forever. EMP'ed units should be imune to EMP for 1 or 2 turns. Otherwise, the emp spam just shuts down the game.

  Unimarobj wrote:
I usually have no issues with engineers while playing Titans, it doesn't seem too much of an inconvenience. I mean, just deal with it. The Titans have their strengths as does every race. The EMP is to help Sapiens against them, because a tank taking on a plasma tank is toast. Marines vs. Mecha are toast. And the walker has the longest range in the game. And the titan units have great defense.

I agree that the Sap's should get some kind of improvement to compensate them for the EMP fix and also for the Heli fix that I have been asking for. Maybe make the battery better with ability to move 1 hex after firing and stronger defense.



  Unimarobj wrote:
So, why not just leave it alone?

Because EMP spam can ruin entire games by just shutting down the map. I love this game, but I have been tempted several times to just delete it from my iPhone after some Sap player EMP's me for 10 turn in a row and all I can do is save up my money so I can buy 4 walkers to shoot down the engineers. EMP spam is the most unbalanced, unfair, and fun destroying element in the entire game. It must be fixed.
lion37

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lion37

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Just to elabroate some more on my (lenghty) post.

You say Titans should just deal with EMP spam. The problem is that the game has given Titans no way to deal with it.
Once EMP spam starts, all the Titan units next to the Engineers (and the bases making the engineers) are frozen and can do nothing.

Titans have no flying units that might be able to fly over and kill the engineers.
Our one and only answer is the Walker. But as I previosuly explained, it often takes 2 walkers to stop 1 engineer (or 4 walkers to stop two Engineers) due to terrain bonus. There are many maps where its just not possible for the Titan player to set up that many Walkers in position and defend them.

As a Titan player, I would love to "deal" with EMP spam. But the game has to first give me some method of "dealing" with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 16, 2009 12:28

5200

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5200

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  Unimarobj wrote:
I usually have no issues with engineers while playing Titans, it doesn't seem too much of an inconvenience. I mean, just deal with it. The Titans have their strengths as does every race. The EMP is to help Sapiens against them, because a tank taking on a plasma tank is toast. Marines vs. Mecha are toast. And the walker has the longest range in the game. And the titan units have great defense.


Yeah but you can't evaluate on single unit vs single unit. You have to look at the big picture.

For example, Mechas are a bit stronger than marines, but marines are hardly "toast" against them. Plus Mechas on sapiens' turf are sitting ducks for EMP+reprogram. Plus marines have to mobility to escape some battles where Mechas can't (though they can teleport back to heal.)

Plasma tanks are stronger than sapien tanks, but that's rarely a 1v1 battle. Most often I see 2 plasma tanks against w sapien tanks and an engineer (both set-ups cost 1000.) The sapien will always win this because they can just sit there and heal 4 pts and ignore the plasma attack.

  Unimarobj wrote:
So, why not just leave it alone?


That's what will probably happen anyway. But I think this is a fair discussion as EMP is a very powerful tool for a race that's already arguably the best in the game, just for sheer mobility and adaptability. It's also a dozen times more effective than the Plague and UV abilities their counterparts get (plague is a mere annoyance, though admittedly cool, and UV is just useless... plus EMP lets engineers freely capture Mechas where infectors and assimilators have to be very cautious.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 16, 2009 14:45

Synozeer

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Synozeer

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Don't forget this one:

7) Engineers' EMP can only affect 1 space around them (like the Infector) instead of 2.

Makes it a lot harder to stop all the Titan player's units, and the Engineer can't hide behind other units.


I see a problem with the first one:

1) Make the engineer unable to move on the same turn as they do an EMP.

Although even with #1 implemented, you still can spam EMPs - you just have to start it 1 turn later by moving first, building a new Engineer, then next turn EMP, move other Engineer, build Engineer, repeat. So that might not solve the problem at all.
souled

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souled

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Instead of nerfing EMP, why not give the titans a more than worhless utility? EMP and plague are both good, UV is more like, "sorry we couldn't think of anything.. Here have this."

The only problem with making all the utilities good is it turns the game into too much of a rock paper scissors deal. I'm afraid to use titans on close range maps because of emp, it shouldn't be that way.
Anonymous

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Souled - You just asnwered your own question in your post. EMP must be nerfed. Period.
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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wouldnt this thread be better as a poll?
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Kevor

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Kevor

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  Hachiman wrote: wouldnt this thread be better as a poll?

Well, perhaps, eventually -- but I think we're still trying to decide what the poll choices are. I doubt we're ready yet to vote on anything. So, since I started this darned thread, maybe I should take some responsibility for it... OK, here is a re-cap of the possible alternatives, with my best attempt to summarize the options put forward since last time:

(1) Make the engineer unable to move on the same turn as they do an EMP
(2) Lower the engineer's defense, so they are easier to kill
(NOTE: as mentioned, engineers already have Defense Strength = 0. Would have to start them with <10 hit points to make easier to kill.)
(3) The effect of the EMP would be to immobilize Titan units, but they can still attack and defend.
(4) The effect of the EMP would be to immobilize Titan units, but they can still defend.
(5) The effect of the EMP would be to slow Titan units (e.g. halving their movement)
(6) After a Titan unit recovers from EMP, it is immune to EMP for the next 1 or 2 rounds
(7) Make engineers "cooldown" after using EMP for a turn or two
(NOTE: by 'cooldown', not referring to the EMP, which already has a 10-turn cooldown, but to the engineer being able to move, reprogram, etc.)
(8 ) EMP only affects 1 space around the engineer, instead of 2.
(9) Engineers get no terrain bonus.
(10) Engineers with less than 5 (or X) health cannot EMP.
(11) EMP shuts the Titans down for the Sapien's round (when the EMP was fired), but not the for Titan's next round.

I think that's it. Please chime in if I missed one. I also put some notes and modifications to the list, in response to suggestions and valid points made earlier. What I think we need to do is narrow down our choices. We have way too many here! Could people please let me know which ones you think are the best, and which you think are the worst. I think we should have no more than 5 choices before we go to a poll.

(souled and 5200 made a valid point that the Assimilator's UV utility sucks eggs, but please don't reply to that. Lets stay on focus here: EMP. Period. If you like the idea of improving the Assimilator's utility, then please start another thread. Thanks.)

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army)
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