![[Avatar]](/images/avatar/0c72cb7ee1512f800abe27823a792d03.jpg)
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
I haven't played with these units yet.
I have heard some concerns regarding their balance and had written this suggestion:
@OmegaD: or... what if you increased the AP % from 50% to say, 75%. Lowering tank ⤭ armor from 14 to 4.... would lower speeder armor to 3. So then you could reduce GH attack to Let's say 3, and have it deal same damage to the tank as it does currently ⤭ but less damage to the speeder than currently.
id love to hear some thoughts on the balance of these units. I've heard guardian is very strong (has his limitation with the no heals.), other than that I haven't heard much.
The concern from omegaD was that these units w their low cost and overall utility really make tank units obsolete. I think adjusting the AP % upward and the GH attack value downward for the blasters might help to specialize these units even more, as it could decrease their effectiveness against speeder and marauder.
I look forward to these guys coming to iOS soon. And if this isn't a consensus concern, then just continue to walk on by 
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Dec 29, 2016 05:05
|
|
|
![[Avatar]](/images/avatar/0c1c995b77ea7312f887ddd9f9d35de5.png)
simsverd
Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
|
|
simsverd
Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
|
differentiating between plasma and speeder will not work.. because they are both ground heavy. Its not in current scope to make a ground medium class.
Personally i think it is great that they deal a lot of dammage to both tanks, speeders, marauders,plasma, air and aquatic.
They are very POWERFUL the new units but also very FRAGILE. In my experience they are pretty hard to use properly - meaning to make them deal more dammage than their cost before dying. Inexperienced players will not get better with this units..
Even at higher levels of play there is not any consensus yet on what must change... so far much of the discussion are on the guradian heal 0 or not.. wich tells me that the new units are actually not so bad balanced from the start.
|
Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.
Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game |
|
|
![[Avatar]](/images/avatar/6a6e3ec7373f2a5d2fdb3e4e5b80debd.png)
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
|
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
From the excerpt of their respective abilities, siege either gets a range buff or a stats buff, tho I prefer range over stats (I want Siege Tanks now!!), acid's useless other than being a long term attack, if you guys are gonna keep that ability, add splash damage to the ability so it's able to keep enemy, units from blobing, tho redistributing the long term damage to 1 (for 3-5 turns I'd say) or keep the splash damage, but instead of damage reduction, it decreases enemy defense instead to give boost for your units (assuming you haven't used them yet in your turn), plus it'd like barrier's archenemy, and barrier is to boost defense for others, I assume it'd be around it, which is fine, but this ability complicates me the most. I'd say good luck for them 
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 29, 2016 08:37
|
Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff [WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info |
|
|
copeab
Messages: 31,
Joined: Jun 25, 2014,
Offline
|
|
copeab
Messages: 31,
Joined: Jun 25, 2014,
Offline
|
I posted this elsewhere, but I'll repost it here:
Change the Guardian repair rate to 0.5, rounding down after any modifiers. This means it can't heal on it's own,gets 1 point from an assimilator or med base or 3 points from both.
If you think this is too generous, make it 0.2. This means it must be on a med base with an assimilator next to it to repair a single point.
Otherwise, I have no other blaster unit changes I'd like to see changed at this time.
|
|
|
Kohtar
Messages: 40,
Joined: Oct 12, 2016,
Offline
|
|
Kohtar
Messages: 40,
Joined: Oct 12, 2016,
Offline
|
So far I haven't played much with the new units, but:
- I think the Guardian is powerful, even with 0 repair it is well worth its cost. It's the counter the titans needed to tank-engineer rush. It can Also effective against marauders since it can attack after move. Should also be a must-have in TvT for the same reasons. A bit less useful against K I think. With non-zero healing it would really be too strong.
- The bopper will be very useful against T: it's what Saps need to break a plasma tank wall. Less useful against speeders because they move after strike. They are useless in SvS (tanks are uncommon, and marauders will not willingly stay in bopper's range at end turn). Against K, it's situationnal: it will be used if the opponent builds tanks near heavy terrain, of if it can threaten a base easily.
- I haven't built a borfly so far. I think it can be useful mostly against titans, if they start building plasma tanks. In KvK they are useless (they'll get crushed by swarmers and garuda). Against saps, I don't think they'll see much use either: they're only effective against tanks, which are uncommon in this matchup anyways. At best they will be situationnal: if they can find a sweet spot (in water typically) from which they can control cities or bases.
|
|
|
simsverd
Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
|
|
simsverd
Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
|
Kohtar wrote:So far I haven't played much with the new units, but:
- I think the Guardian is powerful, even with 0 repair it is well worth its cost. It's the counter the titans needed to tank-engineer rush. It can Also effective against marauders since it can attack after move. Should also be a must-have in TvT for the same reasons. A bit less useful against K I think. With non-zero healing it would really be too strong.
- The bopper will be very useful against T: it's what Saps need to break a plasma tank wall. Less useful against speeders because they move after strike. They are useless in SvS (tanks are uncommon, and marauders will not willingly stay in bopper's range at end turn). Against K, it's situationnal: it will be used if the opponent builds tanks near heavy terrain, of if it can threaten a base easily.
- I haven't built a borfly so far. I think it can be useful mostly against titans, if they start building plasma tanks. In KvK they are useless (they'll get crushed by swarmers and garuda). Against saps, I don't think they'll see much use either: they're only effective against tanks, which are uncommon in this matchup anyways. At best they will be situationnal: if they can find a sweet spot (in water typically) from which they can control cities or bases.
good analysis! i agree on most points. Borfly is actually really strong in k vs k.. not so easily crushed by swarmer /garuda as you might think
|
Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.
Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game |
|
|
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
|
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
I'd like to see a 400 credit guardian, that way it's a defined powerhouse unit (to bopper's balanced and borfly's subversive [3 guardians = 4 boppers = 6 borflies)
perhaps give it that +1 repair at a cost of 50 more credits (350 -> 400).
btw, are they gonna be vulnerable to conversion? bc the basic units are subject to that treatment (probably not for borfly for being aerial)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Dec 29, 2016 21:11
|
Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff [WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info |
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
The concern isn't so much about how good/vulnerable the blaster units are, it's about whether the plasma is now obsolete because of them. Yes, blaster units are hard to use against marauders and swarmers, but the point is, people are building speeders and marauders instead of tanks and plasmas. Case in point: how often do you see a plasma built anymore? Since the blaster units released it's pretty much a light/air game now, because the plasma has been made obsolete by them. I think the solution is simple: nerf the armor piercing slightly. Or better yet, as Duaneski suggested, make them more specialized so they're *only* good against GH and not so versatile.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 03, 2017 02:31
|
|
|
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
|
LkASr
Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
|
OmegaD wrote:The concern isn't so much about how good/vulnerable the blaster units are, it's about whether the plasma is now obsolete because of them. Yes, blaster units are hard to use against marauders and swarmers, but the point is, people are building speeders and marauders instead of tanks and plasmas. Case in point: how often do you see a plasma built anymore? Since the blaster units released it's pretty much a light/air game now, because the plasma has been made obsolete by them. I think the solution is simple: nerf the armor piercing slightly. Or better yet, as Duaneski suggested, make them more specialized so they're *only* good against GH and not so versatile.
even they're specialized, they're even more ineffective against your cheap zerging units (especially Borfly, which is already useless against them). I'm much more supportive of buffing the tanks instead, they really lack utility and are just expensive paperweights. For me, give the 3 tanks abilities to make them much less of being paperweights. Here are the suggestions:
Give all of them the same new abilities the blaster units will have:
Give Tank siege (SIEGE TANKS, SIEGE TANKS, SIEGE TANKS)
Give Pinzer acid (or whatever ability the Borfly gets)
Give Plasma barrier (this can be op if they form up a barrier Plasma wall, but making them immobile helps counter that)
this way, this makes a rivalry between the the tanks and the blasters (battle of attack vs defense) while making tank units more useful, but not making them op
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 03, 2017 04:05
|
Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff [WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info |
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
Having at last played with the units myself, i think they're very finely balanced
Bopper and boarfly:
They're good at holding down positions early. They can be part of an advance. But their extremely limited threat range as well as paper defense certainly make them very vulnerable
Well done to those who landed on these stats and designs. I'm loving it they're situational and very effective at the right times ..
Guardian:
I'm still getting a feel for him. My impression so far has been actually that he is Probably well balanced. He's tough because his strength of saying "no, you aren't entering this rather large area" is exactly what a Titan player wants generally. They're just great at shutting down large parts of the map with their solid threat range. At the same time, they can be a risky investment... so I think it works I think if they lost a point of attack or mobility they'd probably still be good tho
|
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
Duaneski wrote:Having at last played with the units myself, i think they're very finely balanced
But again, my concern is not so much with the utility and balance of the new units; it's with the resulting obsolescence of the plasma. In the games you played, did anyone dare bring out that 500-credit target? I am guessing no, but even if someone did, was it able to stand in front as it used to, or did it spend the whole time running away from blaster units / dying a quick death? (I'm betting it was the latter.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 14, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
OmegaD wrote:
Duaneski wrote:Having at last played with the units myself, i think they're very finely balanced
But again, my concern is not so much with the utility and balance of the new units; it's with the resulting obsolescence of the plasma. In the games you played, did anyone dare bring out that 500-credit target? I am guessing no, but even if someone did, was it able to stand in front as it used to, or did it spend the whole time running away from blaster units / dying a quick death? (I'm betting it was the latter.)
Depends on the map
|
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
|
OmegaD
Messages: 30,
Joined: Dec 11, 2016,
Offline
|
Duaneski wrote:Depends on the map
Very well. I came, I spoke, I lost. I ask only that we remember the plasmas going forward. If you begin to notice that they are less than useful now that the blaster units are out, sound the alarm. Demand justice and equity for the blaster kind. Don't let them slip quietly into the night. Remember their former glory and demand no less from them in the days that lie ahead. Out.
|
|
|
![[Avatar]](/images/avatar/e572cc8a256bbf824c98a1278ffadc24.jpg)
Michaelrn
Messages: 80,
Joined: Feb 16, 2016,
Offline
|
|
Michaelrn
Messages: 80,
Joined: Feb 16, 2016,
Offline
|
I still haven't played too many games with the new units, but here are my thoughts about them:
Guardian: It is very strong. I see people complaining about the inability to repair but I think that first we need to worry about how powerful it is. I'm not sure if there is a good reason to build a tank class unit against Titans because guardian is cheaper, has more mobility, devastate them and still has a good attack against other units. I also find it a bit weird that Titans, the most defensive and slow race, has the most mobile and aggressive blaster unit. I think that at least a slight nerf in the attack power will be welcome.
Bopper: I played only one game with the updated version with attack after move (AAM) and the game was against bot, so my opinion here may not be much reliable. Bopper is much more useful now because of AAM and now it can threat up to 5 hexes away, enough to dive into walker’s range and attack a plasma in the same turn. It is easier to protect bopper than protect the guardian because it attacks from greater distance. Overall it seems a to be a very interesting unit.
Borfly: It seems to be the weaker unit, with very situational utility. It is too easy to avoid its attack: marauders and speeders can hit a unit that is defending the borfly and run away from its range (or they can just hit the borfly); a walker or speeder backing up a plasma can keep the borfly away; tank isn't supposed to be used against Khraleans and pinzer is rarely used in KvK so there is no need to worry about the usefulness against them. It's lack of mobility doesn't seem to fit well in the style of play of Khraleans. If we add AAM to it and keep the attack range then it can make swarmer obsolete in most cases, so a different solution could be found.
I think that would be interesting if guardian and bopper had their mobility and attack range exchanged with each other; this way the guardian would fit better in the overall idea of the Titans race.
About the borfly, I have an idea that may sounds crazy: give it 4 hexes mobility and attack range 1 (threat range of 5 hexes just like the 2 other blaster units). This way it would turn into a very unique unit. It would almost always dive into certain death to attack but, being so cheap, could be disposed to finish a weakened and more expensive unit or to gang up on a plasma. The increased threat range would help it to have more utility.
|
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
|
Duaneski
Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
|
Wait. Can we nerf the boarfly and give it bury ?
|
|
|
|
|
![[Search]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_search.gif){kind=icon}
![[Recent Topics]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_recentTopics.gif){kind=icon}
![[Login]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_login.gif){kind=icon}
Login
![[Post New]](/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
![[Up]](/templates/default/images/icon_up.gif){kind=icon}
![[Email]](/templates/default/images/icon_email.gif){kind=icon}