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Fuze is the new op unit
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  dr. pepper wrote:As it stands now, you'd have to nerf the salamander and Mantisse to bring better balance between the three units. I think the Fuze should be buffed in a unique way to make it stand out against the others. I like move after attack personally.

Balancing units not limited to a comparison between units in the same class.. you have to look at the bigger picture here.. Sap is the dominant race now, and buffing the fuze makes no sense.
We will consider changes to the amphibious units, but currently there are other changes we have higher up on the "list".. for example swarmer buff

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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  simsverd wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:As it stands now, you'd have to nerf the salamander and Mantisse to bring better balance between the three units. I think the Fuze should be buffed in a unique way to make it stand out against the others. I like move after attack personally.

Balancing units not limited to a comparison between units in the same class.. you have to look at the bigger picture here.. Sap is the dominant race now, and buffing the fuze makes no sense.
We will consider changes to the amphibious units, but currently there are other changes we have higher up on the "list".. for example swarmer buff


All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance. Simply stating that Sapiens are winning the most while ignoring an imbalance within a class isn't right although I can see bringing the whole game into balance is most important.

I guess that's why Bopper and Fuze lost their anti-air. If I'm correct in assuming the Fuze is relatively weak, it would have to mean that the Bopper's impact has been the most drastic and caused the most imbalance. Balance is very tricky across three races when adding so many new units and maps into the equation.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.

no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.

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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  simsverd wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.

no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.


I'm definitely not proposing to be a top level player who understands all intricacies of balancing this game, but I can confidently tell you the Fuze is underpowered compared to the other amphibious units after a cursory look at the statistics. And I can also see that amphibious units don't play a huge role in balance since they don't make a lot of sense on a majority of maps that don't involve a lot of reefs and swamps.

Assuming the balance wasn't too far off prior to the addition new units, it's process of elimination to identify that it was either the blaster units or a combination of the blaster + amphibious units that caused the imbalance. If Sapiens are consistently mopping up at the highest levels of play, the bopper probably has a lot to do with it. Although I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the maps and whether or not there are a lot of well placed forest and mountain tiles, which make the blasters even better.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Mar 13, 2017 14:10

Pento

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Pento

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Another fact:
You just can't look at the whole big thing, when people have to spend money for a unit.
If someone purchases the fuze, he expects some additional value. At least a good playable unit that is competitive to comparable units.
But that's not given and in the end very disappointing.

I see people playing with Mantisse and Salamander but hardly anyone is using fuze because its like fighting with a stick while the opponent appears with a gun.
The stick can be helpful... ... But I prefer to fight with a gun.
Kohtar

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Kohtar

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I can tell that the SvS tourney quarter-final sees a lot of Fuzes... So they clearly find a spot in the sapiens strategy.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  simsverd wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.

no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.


Balancing units is actually not as hard as you'd think. There are simple and complicated elements to each balancing factor, making an alternating current out of it can potentially have it a go.

This might not make sense, even to my own mind, but it'll show up soon enough for us
Pento

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Pento

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  Kohtar wrote:I can tell that the SvS tourney quarter-final sees a lot of Fuzes... So they clearly find a spot in the sapiens strategy.


Yes, it you play SvS you have a least no disadvantage.
As well you are not dealing with Speeders and swarmers.
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  LkASr wrote:
  simsverd wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.

no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.


Balancing units is actually not as hard as you'd think. There are simple and complicated elements to each balancing factor, making an alternating current out of it can potentially have it a go.

This might not make sense, even to my own mind, but it'll show up soon enough for us


I totally disagree and the fact the developers have had to make so many unit adjustments is proof that balance is very tricky. And as you add each additional unit and have to consider balancing it against every other existing unit while considering each match-up and unit combinations, balancing becomes very difficult. Uniwar was fairly balanced prior to the introduction of the blasters and amphibians. The blasters have drastically changed the meta of this game. They've changed the balance between the races, and they've also made drastic changes to the most common unit compositions. I see far fewer tanks, plasma tanks, and pinzers than I did before and I've also noticed batteries are a lot more rare as well. Previously, you had to build GH to deal with GH. Now it's much better to build blasters, and you can do it more cost effectively.

Simsverd's comments about Sapiens being the strongest race right now also helped to shed additional light on why the developers nerfed both the bopper and fuze's aerial attack to 1 despite the fact that the Sapiens have fewer anti-air options than the other races. Despite their limited number of units, the developers must feel the Sapiens already deal with Khralean air easily enough. I am also starting to notice that I am able to win more SvT matchups vs. higher rated players and also struggle to win vs. equally rated players when I'm Titans vs. Sapiens.

From what I can tell currently, here's what I see (in order of worst imbalance to least)...

T>K
S>T
S>K

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 14, 2017 16:29

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Kohtar wrote:I can tell that the SvS tourney quarter-final sees a lot of Fuzes... So they clearly find a spot in the sapiens strategy.


What maps are the games on? That would play some role as well. I still build Fuzes, but I don't find as many opportunities to use them as I would a Salamander or Mantisse.
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Maneetoe

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Maneetoe

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You all realize that the arguments that started on this thread on March 6th were predicated on statements made about the Fuze before it had its defense and attack nerfed, right?

Fuze is no longer the powerhouse it was back in beta and early release.
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Maneetoe wrote:You all realize that the arguments that started on this thread on March 6th were predicated on statements made about the Fuze before it had its defense and attack nerfed, right?

Fuze is no longer the powerhouse it was back in beta and early release.


Correct, the post started by saying the Fuze was overpowered. I personally think it's underpowered now.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  dr. pepper wrote:
  Maneetoe wrote:You all realize that the arguments that started on this thread on March 6th were predicated on statements made about the Fuze before it had its defense and attack nerfed, right?

Fuze is no longer the powerhouse it was back in beta and early release.


Correct, the post started by saying the Fuze was overpowered. I personally think it's underpowered now.


this thread was posted when it was still the powerhouse

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