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Thoughts on the New 2-23 Balance Changes
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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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I think they're pretty good overall. I loved wrecking everything with Guardians, but they were so overpowered vs. GH. Hopefully this will encourage more tank, pinzer, and Plasma Tank usage again.

I'm curious to see how the Salamander changes impact kvk. They were pretty useless vs. air before the change. Wonder if this will make them more viable vs. Swarmers, Mantisse, Fuze especially with the increased defense strength. I'm also wondering if they're going to chew through everything now with that increased defense strength. 8 seems a bit much for a 200 HP unit. I'm thinking 7 and maybe a mobility increase might have been better. For reference, the speeder has 8 defense at 250 credits. The Marauder has 7 at 250. The Swarmer has 4 at 250. The Garuda has 8 at 350. Guess we'll see.
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Michaelrn

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Michaelrn

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  dr. pepper wrote: ... I'm also wondering if they're going to chew through everything now with that increased defense strength. 8 seems a bit much for a 200 HP unit. I'm thinking 7 and maybe a mobility increase might have been better. For reference, the speeder has 8 defense at 250 credits. The Marauder has 7 at 250. The Swarmer has 4 at 250. The Garuda has 8 at 350. Guess we'll see.


Note that amphibious/ground light are the most vulnerable types, generally units have greater power against them, so garuda and marauder will still be more tanky than salamander.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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To me, Guardian's not so powerful in the long run due to its no repair trait, which means that you simply can't afford to damage it at all while its 1-2 range is good, but it doesn't help me much despite its mobility, I do know how to kill guardians effectively, but the gh and aquatic nerf, it now has to be extremely careful not getting hit

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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  LkASr wrote:To me, Guardian's not so powerful in the long run due to its no repair trait, which means that you simply can't afford to damage it at all while its 1-2 range is good, but it doesn't help me much despite its mobility, I do know how to kill guardians effectively, but the gh and aquatic nerf, it now has to be extremely careful not getting hit


Its' defense didn't get nerfed. It was the offense that got nerfed. I don't think this change really impacts how you'll use the guardian (you needed to protect it before the change and you still need to after) unless it's a situation where you could have previously killed off a more expensive unit while leaving the guardian vulnerable due to the cost trade off. So you probably can't kill off a 6 HP Tank, Pinzer, Plasma, Destroyer, Hydronaut in one Guardian shot anymore and now wouldn't want to risk losing HP to a counterattack due to the inability to repair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 23, 2017 21:10

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Michaelrn wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote: ... I'm also wondering if they're going to chew through everything now with that increased defense strength. 8 seems a bit much for a 200 HP unit. I'm thinking 7 and maybe a mobility increase might have been better. For reference, the speeder has 8 defense at 250 credits. The Marauder has 7 at 250. The Swarmer has 4 at 250. The Garuda has 8 at 350. Guess we'll see.


Note that amphibious/ground light are the most vulnerable types, generally units have greater power against them, so garuda and marauder will still be more tanky than salamander.


That's a good point. Maybe it won't be as big of a buff as I anticipated although I'm still a bit skeptical. I have been trying to use Mass Salamanders KvT on the map 'Current 2', which is loaded with swamps and I'm getting owned by Mantisse and Hydronaut.
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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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The game become better balanced.

Swarmer still left underpowered since the last nerf.
And that make kharl still slightly weaker that the other two races.

Guardian now reasonably strong against ground-heavy.
But I think it's still too strong against aerials.
It's cost 350. Has aerial attack of 7.
Compare to bopper, cost 300. With aerial attack of 1.
You'll see it's still overpowered. Despite inability to repair.

And in fact most player, including me, rarely build eclipse today.
Instead, replace eclipse with guardians. Mixing them with your alway available mecha&speeders.
Although they've less anti-air power than eclipse, they still have enough to repel most aerial threats.

Beside, it has a lot more versatility. I mean a lot.
Guardian/speeder/mecha combination are cheap and can deal with literally all type of units.
Name it infatry, tank, aerial or ship.

So I think if swarmer get +2 or +1 ground-light attack and guardian get -2 or -1 aerial attack,
the game should become very fine balanced.

And the monthly balance adjust plan is good.





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simsverd

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simsverd

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  StarryBlink wrote:
Swarmer still left underpowered since the last nerf.
Guardian now reasonably strong against ground-heavy, But I think it's still too strong against aerials.
And in fact most player, including me, rarely build eclipse today.


Thx for input.

The balance patch 23/2 definately improved things.
We are considering some possible changes for next month:
(might be others also)
- swarmer buff GL and/or Def
- borfly nerf GH
- Guardian nerf air and possibly GH/Aqua

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Michaelrn

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Michaelrn

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  StarryBlink wrote:...Guardian now reasonably strong against ground-heavy.
But I think it's still too strong against aerials.
It's cost 350. Has aerial attack of 7.
Compare to bopper, cost 300. With aerial attack of 1.


I'm not saying that guardian isn't powerful, but you can't forget that bopper has greater range and 35% armor pierce against aerial.



  simsverd wrote:Thx for input.

The balance patch 23/2 definately improved things.
We are considering some possible changes for next month:
(might be others also)
- swarmer buff GL and/or Def
- borfly nerf GH
- Guardian nerf air and possibly GH/Aqua



I didn't test extensively yet the last changes, but so far they seem to help balance.

I think that maybe the guardian can gain repair 1 if it receive more attack nerf.
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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I really hope they resist the urge to give guardian's heal. I like the fact that they can be made permanently weak. It makes them more interesting. First you need to protect them and when they have taken damage then you need to find interesting things to do with them. They can still cap, they will take fire and they can blockade. They can still teleport. The only heal option that i have heard for guardians that i liked was the 0.25 type heal. So on their own they cant heal but with help they can just about be coaxed back to life.

I think the borfly might have been buffed a little too much as i now seem to prefer them over swarmers even though swarmers are 50c more. However i have not used them enough to really be sure and the nerf would need to be small.

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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  StarryBlink wrote:The game become better balanced.

Swarmer still left underpowered since the last nerf.
And that make kharl still slightly weaker that the other two races.

Guardian now reasonably strong against ground-heavy.
But I think it's still too strong against aerials.
It's cost 350. Has aerial attack of 7.
Compare to bopper, cost 300. With aerial attack of 1.
You'll see it's still overpowered. Despite inability to repair.

And in fact most player, including me, rarely build eclipse today.
Instead, replace eclipse with guardians. Mixing them with your alway available mecha&speeders.
Although they've less anti-air power than eclipse, they still have enough to repel most aerial threats.

Beside, it has a lot more versatility. I mean a lot.
Guardian/speeder/mecha combination are cheap and can deal with literally all type of units.
Name it infatry, tank, aerial or ship.

So I think if swarmer get +2 or +1 ground-light attack and guardian get -2 or -1 aerial attack,
the game should become very fine balanced.

And the monthly balance adjust plan is good.



I have the same issue with Guardians but I experience that with Plasma Tanks. Guardians always seem to be a superior purchase.

I'm also struggling with Khraleans vs. Titans. Seems you have to play defensive as Khraleans to avoid getting run over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 05, 2017 04:15

tommecc

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tommecc

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Guardian is still too strong because it is the only tankbuster unit that can inflict damage twice in the worst case. Bopper can move and attack, then if it it is not well defended it will die without cause any other damage, so just one shot. Borefly is the same, but in the worst case it will inflict damage only when it is attacked to be destroyed, also in this case is a one shot unit. Guardian can inflict damage by moving and attack, than it will continue to hurt also when it will be attacked by short range units, so it is at list a two shot unit, and just this make it a units that is almost every time worth more than the credits used to build it.
So I propose to restrict the range of guardian only to 2, like bopper that have range of only 3, while borefly will be the only unit that can attack in short and long range because it cannot attack after move.
Tom
Pento

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Pento

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  tommecc wrote:Guardian is still too strong because it is the only tankbuster unit that can inflict damage twice in the worst case. Bopper can move and attack, then if it it is not well defended it will die without cause any other damage, so just one shot. Borefly is the same, but in the worst case it will inflict damage only when it is attacked to be destroyed, also in this case is a one shot unit. Guardian can inflict damage by moving and attack, than it will continue to hurt also when it will be attacked by short range units, so it is at list a two shot unit, and just this make it a units that is almost every time worth more than the credits used to build it.
So I propose to restrict the range of guardian only to 2, like bopper that have range of only 3, while borefly will be the only unit that can attack in short and long range because it cannot attack after move.
Tom


I agree totally
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  tommecc wrote:Guardian is still too strong because it is the only tankbuster unit that can inflict damage twice in the worst case. Bopper can move and attack, then if it it is not well defended it will die without cause any other damage, so just one shot. Borefly is the same, but in the worst case it will inflict damage only when it is attacked to be destroyed, also in this case is a one shot unit. Guardian can inflict damage by moving and attack, than it will continue to hurt also when it will be attacked by short range units, so it is at list a two shot unit, and just this make it a units that is almost every time worth more than the credits used to build it.
So I propose to restrict the range of guardian only to 2, like bopper that have range of only 3, while borefly will be the only unit that can attack in short and long range because it cannot attack after move.
Tom


So I was totally tracking with you until your suggestion was to reduce the range to only 2 (from 1-2). How many times do you attack with the guardian with 1 range? I almost NEVER do that. I think part of what makes the guardian overpowered is the mobility. 10 range is ridiculous for a unit that does so much damage. 7 or 8 seems better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 06, 2017 10:21

Pento

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Pento

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Tommecc is pointing that even there guardian has a big advantage. It can defend itself. The others can't(bopper, botfly)
So there is not even anyhow the possibility to take them out easily, except artillery.

But you are right as well, it is very fast.

For me it's the combination of everything.
No weaknesses, except the healing.
That counts a lot, of course, but not that much.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 06, 2017 11:06

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Pento wrote:Tommecc is pointing that even there guardian has a big advantage. It can defend itself. The others can't(bopper, botfly)
So there is not even anyhow the possibility to take them out easily, except artillery.

But you are right as well, it is very fast.

For me it's the combination of everything.
No weaknesses, except the healing.
That counts a lot, of course, but not that much.


You're right. I did not think about the fact it wouldn't be able to defend itself at 1 range.
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