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LkASr

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LkASr

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  simsverd wrote:You are looking at it to narrowly. You have to consider the overall race balance, and it is pretty well balanced now. Many of the top players believe that the fuze is ok as it is. Its probably more useful in larger groups than as a standalone unit.
I dont know where you got the idea of saps being a "quick race".. i have not seen that description anywhere...

We might consider move and defence buff, but its not a priority atm.


It's an ok unit, it's just as useless, or even more useless as a tank when pitting against aerial units. A tank can at least c'kblock a few aerials in the open (more in cramped areas, unless you're a helicopter and especially a borfly) when a fuze can't even punch a hole to a helicopter and take a hit.

I like to view amphibious units as anti infantry units tho

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at May 07, 2017 12:06


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Pento

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Pento

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  simsverd wrote:
  Pento wrote:
Hi,
Can be a little fragile, but should be useful as well.

As well the Sapiens already have two units you can't leave without any protection and with the fuze there are already three of them.

That kills the idea of a quick race and as well it's annoying to protect all new units. Especially after tanks got kind of obsolete.

@ simsverd: You already have an idea what might be the modificación for the fuze?

You are looking at it to narrowly. You have to consider the overall race balance, and it is pretty well balanced now. Many of the top players believe that the fuze is ok as it is. Its probably more useful in larger groups than as a standalone unit.
I dont know where you got the idea of saps being a "quick race".. i have not seen that description anywhere...

We might consider move and defence buff, but its not a priority atm.


@ simsverd
I got the idea that sap is a quick race because I played the game. But indeed with the new units they got slowed down.

By the way: when is a top player a top player? What has to be fulfilled to be one?
Always when we talk about the balancing / qualities of units you refer that the top players see it different and are fine with the units how they are.
Seems no one in the forum has the quality to judge the units and the game.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  Pento wrote:
@ simsverd
By the way: when is a top player a top player? What has to be fulfilled to be one?
Always when we talk about the balancing / qualities of units you refer that the top players see it different and are fine with the units how they are.
Seems no one in the forum has the quality to judge the units and the game.

We have a "uniwar balance group" with some of the best players in the game. We discuss and decide balance changes and consulting Xavi on the bigger changes. Currently consisting of Gout, Kroeger, Vogon jeltz and myself (my role is more of a coordinator). We plan to add more members to that group of similar skill-level in the near future.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 10, 2017 15:29


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LkASr

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LkASr

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  simsverd wrote:
  Pento wrote:
@ simsverd
By the way: when is a top player a top player? What has to be fulfilled to be one?
Always when we talk about the balancing / qualities of units you refer that the top players see it different and are fine with the units how they are.
Seems no one in the forum has the quality to judge the units and the game.

We have a "uniwar balance group" with some of the best players in the game. We discuss and decide balance changes and consulting Xavi on the bigger changes. Currently consisting of Gout, Kroeger, Vogon jeltz and myself (my role is more of a coordinator). We plan to add more members to that group of similar skill-level in the near future.


For me, you've seen me guys putting some wild card balancing suggestions (basically from the blaster unit balance discussion), so if you need more of those, I can think of them

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Pento

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Pento

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Thanks for explanation.

I agree the balancing in general is quite fine right now, that's why I didn't want to compare the fuze with the other amphibian units.

But still fuze is useless and the balance would be fine/the same as well if the Sapiens wouldn't have the fuze and T / K would have salamander and Mantisse.

I just finished a game S vs S.
Little advantage for the opponent. He decided to build 3 fuze because my army was mainly Marines.
Two rounds later he gave up.

It's so easy to kill fuze, even easier than killing a marine. As well it's always worth to attack a fuze because you always destroy more credits with an attack than you lose.
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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I think everyone understands that overall balance is important, but it's also important to compare units of the same class with similar credits. When you're evaluating balance on a map that has lots of swamps and reefs, and the Fuze is underpowered when compared to the Mantisse and Salamander, that would definitely contribute to Sapiens struggling on these types of maps.

In another thread, I pointed out that the Sapiens have less anti-air options (the Fuze and Bopper are both quite weak against air) than other races and this is especially true on maps with swamps and reefs where marines are not a viable anti-air unit. My complaint was that Sapiens are forced into a single strategy consisting of Helis + Marauders when their opponent is a Khraleans player.

For reference, here are the options both races have for decent anti-air damage:

Sapiens
Marines
Marauders
Helis
Batteries

Titans
Mecha
Speeders
Plasma Tanks
Eclipse
Mantisse
Guardian
Walker

I think everybody would also acknowledge that Batteries and Walker are a lot more situational and not always viable dependent on the map, etc. So take away marines and batteries (smaller swampy / reefy map) and you're left with 2! units to deal with anti-air. That's ridiculous...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 10, 2017 18:57

wargasm

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wargasm

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  Pento wrote:
But still fuze is useless and the balance would be fine/the same as well if the Sapiens wouldn't have the fuze and T / K would have salamander and Mantisse.
It's so easy to kill fuze, even easier than killing a marine.


THIS.

If the only reasoning the "board" will consider is based on balance, then consider this.

SvT- Speeders (and eclipses) OWN fuzes, in addition to having mantisse for an apples to apples counter. Additionally, the titan's general defense advantage (mechas, plasma tanks, speeders) further trivializes the damage of the fuze.
-In most SvT matches where I'm the titan player, I'll spam at least 3 speeders to start a match, whether or not my sapien opponent is using fuze.
SvK- Fuze is useless because they do trivial damage to air units. Yes, a smart K player will use salamanders on an appropriate map, but I'm sorry, marines are just a better. Half price, same damage, more valuable.
-9 of 10 SvK matches are air fights won by whoever got the jump on air production.
SvS- Simply put, I'll just spend +50 credits on a marauder, thanks.

Fuze are a cheap naval unit able to cap bases, THAT'S IT, and it doesn't take a "high ranked player" that actually plays the game to see that.
Pento

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Pento

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  dr. pepper wrote:I think everyone understands that overall balance is important, but it's also important to compare units of the same class with similar credits. When you're evaluating balance on a map that has lots of swamps and reefs, and the Fuze is underpowered when compared to the Mantisse and Salamander, that would definitely contribute to Sapiens struggling on these types of maps.

In another thread, I pointed out that the Sapiens have less anti-air options (the Fuze and Bopper are both quite weak against air) than other races and this is especially true on maps with swamps and reefs where marines are not a viable anti-air unit. My complaint was that Sapiens are forced into a single strategy consisting of Helis + Marauders when their opponent is a Khraleans player.

For reference, here are the options both races have for decent anti-air damage:

Sapiens
Marines
Marauders
Helis
Batteries

Titans
Mecha
Speeders
Plasma Tanks
Eclipse
Mantisse
Guardian
Walker

I think everybody would also acknowledge that Batteries and Walker are a lot more situational and not always viable dependent on the map, etc. So take away marines and batteries (smaller swampy / reefy map) and you're left with 2! units to deal with anti-air. That's ridiculous...


I agree.
It got a real problem now that actual Khral strategy vs Sapiens is a salamander and Swammer spam. There is no way for a sapien player to get a balanced "credit exchange" vs khral.

If you try to response with tanks or Helicopter, khral only has to build Garuda.

In my opinion sapien tank needs air attack. Even if it's just one or two.
wargasm

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wargasm

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So today, I had a random ranked game on a sea map, called "TheMorningOnTheOceanZZD", that reminded me how useless Fuze is, even against naval units.

I'm Sapiens, my opponent is Titans, and right out of the gate he saves and builds a Hydronaut. He was P2, so naturally he had a credit advantage, coupled with the fact that I'd already spent my first turn credits on a marauder and a Marine. The marauder runs across the map on turn two, to find empty bases (3). Knowing a Hydronaut is coming, I build two fuzes, one on my sea base and another about 5 tiles away on my nearest land base.

The next turn, my opponent's Hydronaut moves into position 4 tiles form my Fuze (still on my naval base) and deals 9 damage to my fuze. Keep in mind, this was on +2/+2 terrain for my fuze. Seems broken to me.
Kohtar

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Kohtar

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Fuze is actually pretty good in SvS whenever there are chokepoints or favourable terrain. I lost two tourney games due to not using enough fuze. Yes, it is weak, but it killd infantry with no counterdamage. If you can protect it well enough it can easily be worth its price.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  Kohtar wrote:Fuze is actually pretty good in SvS whenever there are chokepoints or favourable terrain. I lost two tourney games due to not using enough fuze. Yes, it is weak, but it killd infantry with no counterdamage. If you can protect it well enough it can easily be worth its price.


it's still vey squishy for a unit, I do like to be it as an anti infantry unit tho, it would look good for it.
I say buff its ground light attack, or at least its Ap vs ground light

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Meetch V

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Meetch V

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Hey guys, here just to pitch in my ideas
I completely agree with LkASr, I want the fuze to be an anti-infantry troop. The fuze should be a unit that you should be spawning when there are lots of marines/mechas/underlings on mountains and forests. For example, you damage a marine on a mountain with your fuze, then back up with your own marine and secure the kill. As of right now, you can do that decently effectively, but really, I would rather use a marauder and damage the marine and then jump back, and then secure the kill with my marine. The fuze just has way too little defence. In my opinion, it should be buffed - +1 defence, +1 vs Ground Light and +1 vs Aerial.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 04, 2017 17:12

Pento

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Pento

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Argh, I should listen to myself!
I had a nice advantage in a struggling game and decided to build two fuze!
What a stupid mistake.
Everything already mentioned happened!
To vulnerable, to little damage, to slow.... To expensive.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Just popping in to again say, this thing does plenty of frickin damage. For 200 you get 5 damage to a mecha on a mountain. What else does that in this game??

If you want to add a point of defense, that makes sense.

I am hearing here, however, that that isn't really gonna make this unit.

So I propose:

Change range from 1-2 to 2.
Give Fuze MAA, mobility 4.

Now you've got a repositioning mobile gun platform that can do spot damage on infantry or other units and reposition for defense.

Alternatively, leave the range 1-2, add the MAA, increase cost to 250. This has the added bonus of helping to solve the SvT problem where Fuze overwhelms mantisse (... generally)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 07, 2017 15:21

Pento

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Pento

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Ähm let me think...... swarmers, pinzer, plasma, tank, artillery. Cooper, Marauder (with both attacks), Eclipse, two Marines, a buried underling, speeder and nearly all the others as well.

And you have to be really lucky to kill five Mecha on a mountain with a fuze. Normally it's four.

MAA would be great. That would give it a real value.
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