Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

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Jun 15, 2017 19:03

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

Smash664

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It seems like tanks are getting an armour buff. One of the mods (Sims maybe) said in the English chat that was in the works (2 weeks). If tanks are getting an armour buff then I say leave the tank busters alone.

Jun 15, 2017 23:46

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

lodeous

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I don't think borfly needs an air nerf. It is easily killed by air units when attacking from range 1.
Nerfing attacks vs tanks is ok with me, within reasonable limits.

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Jun 16, 2017 02:19

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

The Impaler

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Hey guys, I hope I can maybe frame this in another light. First of all let me say that i support this suggestion: Ariel AP% from 50% to 40%. Defense drops from 2 to 1.for the borfly. i agree borfly shouldnt outclass swarmer in the air.

Now about the perspective: try to consider the game as being released right now with all these units. It's easy to see problems based upon previous experience "now this is changed and this is weaker" etc, but the real question should be, is the game fair and balanced right now, and promote good strategic gameplay?

for the borfly, i say the answer is no. they can effecitvely damage all units, so swarming them is a viable strategy. one unit should never be able to do everything. But in terms of reducing tank effectiveness, I dont see this as much of an issue. They are just niche. they are there to block routes of travel for fast units, NOT to form impenetrable walls or be unkillable juggernauts pressing into enemy territory. and i feel the current state of the anti tanks more or less do. because of the range and fragility of the guardian, i feel it is easy to play around. it never sways games. i feel the booper is highly effective, but i buy marauders turn 1 every game, never boppers. so if somehing needs a nerf between the two of them, wouldnt it be the marauder? it costs less and is a better unit.

the borfly is the only exception, because it is so cheap. i believe it gets 200$ minimum return in terms of damage dealt, every time if it is played right. Im playing a lot of khral recently in casual to learn these things, and im still not done learning, but borflys have way bigger sways in pro games i feel.

there should be a good balance of rock paper scissors between the marauder class, the tank class and the tank buster class, and that is broken when the borfly beats both pinzer and swarmer.

other than that, i actually feel the game is in a good place. if we let tanks become unkillable again, then the campy boring strategies will be best. and i know i dont want to lose a game just because my opponent has access to a 5 range unit and i dont...

my opinion is that unless one class has an advantage on most maps, or one unit becomes 100% never used at the top level, then there are no balance issues. niche units are good imo. maybe the sapien tank vs khral is the least used piece, and im not sure what to think of the three long range units... maybe a bit of redesign there. you either make them too effective or useless.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Jun 16, 2017 02:24

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Jun 16, 2017 02:44

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

The Impaler

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honestly the best solution was recommended a while ago, but would be too hard to implement. split the classes into light medium and heavy ground units. that would allow for a more careul balance

oh and footnote: i think antitanks doing 4-5 damage is actually not the worst thing in the world, but borfly should NEVER be able to do 5 to something worth 2.5x its cost...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 16, 2017 03:59

Jun 17, 2017 12:21

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

kikoho

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Joined: Nov 28, 2016,
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Borfly is terribly hard to play against a good player. he did too much damage against heavy, but that quite never happen .
I think today the only too strong tank buster is the booper. 3 range + mouvement make it too easy to protect. I think he should not being able to hit after a mouvement of 2 case

Jun 17, 2017 14:55

Subject: Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

CHN zero

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Joined: Feb 25, 2011,
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bopper need 4 ground hg attack,not 3, that is too low. other changes are ok.

Jun 17, 2017 15:33

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

Duaneski

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Got a reply from thetraxis (2500+ player) after I PMed the top 10 a bit ago. My goal is to message the top 50 by the end of the day today

(Message I sent: Proposed changes by Wormdog: Guardian: -1 GH Boarfly: -2 GH, -1 GL, -1 def, -5% aerial AP Bopper: -2 GH These aren't set in stone. As a top player you can have a voice in this discussion. Please post your thoughts on Blaster balance to the forum link below, OR even PM me back your thoughts. Thank You.)

Thetraxis:
Hi! Thx for the msg and considering me one of the top players, I think the nerf you are proposing is way too high. The reason why many ppl think tank blasters are very powerful its because they dont know how to penetrate the enemy defense and kill them (something actually easy since they dont hit from a 4...5 range, they do it from a 3 or 2 range). Perhaps the only stat a bit overpowered is the borfly GH, that should go down 1 point but in guardian?? That unit cant even regenerate and costs 350 credits which is actually a good amount. Bopper are super weak, personally I kill them easy and they cost 300 which is also not a small amount (this unit needs to have dmg to be atractive). I think tank blasters have changed the game for the best, before them games were too long, ppl who didnt know how to play the game just made an army of tanks or plasma followed by walkers and just waited. Now tanks and plasma are used as a normal unit for some situations like the other units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 17, 2017 16:00

Jun 17, 2017 16:07

Subject: Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

Stief

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I agree with traxis. Against good players most antitankunits have to be played with caution, cause they are easily killed. The only unit i never see or play myself is plasma. He could use a movement and/or heal buff. Being a slow player myself i do miss artilleryunits. Maybe they need some buff too, but the games of only tank and artillery don't need to come back.

Jun 18, 2017 00:25

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

Duaneski

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From michaelrn

Thanks for the message! I've been away from the forum from a while and didn't see this balance discussion. I'll analyze it more carefully later, but I think that the borfly could have a nerf on attack vs amphibious rather than gl; maybe guardian can keep its gh power and receive -1 air; bopper only -1 gh

Jun 18, 2017 07:06

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

simsverd

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As you see... the ideas of the best players are often different... even among tier1 players.

The tank-buster class is pretty much where we want them to be. They are specialized units that do what they are designed to do well + they also add variety to other matchups wich is also important. The borfly air in particular needs to be a usable unit in K vs K (wich previously was a swarmer-fest only) and also be able to dammage the helicopter pretty well. This might ofc change when we introduce the units with high air dammage/control.

This said. We still can do nerfs to the tankbusters... but are so far leaning on ideas to rather make the tanks, eclipse and wyrm more useable without taking away the "tank-busting".

The ideas being discussed in the balance group are not a secret... we are considering one of these for tanks (or different for each race):
- heal +1
- movement incease
- defence +1
We would also have liked "passive healing" for tanks - but that is currently out of scope since it would requre coding (and green light from Xavi)

For wyrm:
- move after attack (in addition to current)
- heal +1

Eclipse:
-heal +1
- amphibian att +2

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Jun 18, 2017 16:54

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

LkASr

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simsverd wrote:The ideas being discussed in the balance group are not a secret... we are considering one of these for tanks (or different for each race):
- heal +1
- movement incease
- defence +1
We would also have liked "passive healing" for tanks - but that is currently out of scope since it would requre coding (and green light from Xavi)

For wyrm:
- move after attack (in addition to current)
- heal +1

Eclipse:
-heal +1
-amphibian att +2

Tanks:
-hmm, seems tricky, as a +3 heal does make themselves as self medical bays (except for Plasma, which is a very good thing for a creeped down unit)
-this one's what I heavily favor for both Tank & Plasma, as since Tanks are defenseless against aerial and Plasma is getting a power creep, having both means that it also adds to the variety, differentiating them while Pinzer could get a different buff
-A defense buff might sound reasonable
-same as the 1st one

Wyrm:
For both, that'd sound broken for an artillery unit, 550 is a reasonable price, but if those 2 are added--

Eclipse:
-I'm ok on this, Eclipse is also having that same power creep as Plasma
-Sure, I don't think there's any problem to this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 18, 2017 16:55

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Jun 18, 2017 20:47

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

Kohtar

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I agree on +1 heal for tanks, especially for plasma: this might make plasma playable again. I'm not sure about eclipse, I think it's playable right now. If it needs to be improved I'd rather improve its movement range to allow it to follow air units and to reach borflies in close combat.

Why is wyrm the only long-range unit considered for improvement? They have all been weakened by the anti-tanks. Move after attack would be a fun ability for wyrms, but batteries and walkers need some love too (I can sometimes spot walkers but I don't see batteries anymore). Maybe some brute-force increase of their offensive power would do the trick.

Jun 18, 2017 21:11

Subject: Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

LkASr

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I'd consider reducing artillery units' cost by 50, meaning you don't have to be pressured to buy it, I mean if that goes in:

Wyrm: 500
Battery: 600
Walker: 700

my 2 cents

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Jun 21, 2017 18:56

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

WormDog

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Thanks for all the replies. Especially Duaneski which went the extra mile to acquire more responses. Overall I got 15 replies, many of them from very high ranked players. I am now aware that Simsverd is officially in charge of monthly adjustments. That’s awesome and encouraging.

First some follow up questions:

Simsverd, you say the balance group is public, where can I find that?

Simsverd, can you elaborate what you mean by passive healing?
What that sounds like is healing is done even though you do another command like attack or move.
If that is the case, it sounds too powerful. I would propose that it means you get to move a reduced rate after a Repair command.

The Impaler, can you eloborate what you mean by splitting the classes into light medium and heavy ground units?

This is a complex nuanced issue. Most folk agreed some adjustments were appropriate, though two liked things they way they are. All from top tier players. The most universal agreement (6 folk) was that the Borfly was over powered for the cost.
The next (4 folk) was that all the tank buster units perhaps could be reduced by 1 point against heavy ground.

I will post my revised proposal in a separate post because apparently there is a limit to the number of characters a single post can have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 21, 2017 19:19

Jun 21, 2017 19:12

Subject: Re:Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request

WormDog

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Gathering it all in, here is my revised proposal:

BORFLY:

GH & AA -1 to overall average damage delivered to GH to AA. This might mean a simple lowering of the AP%. I would have to analyze the code to be sure.

Def -1 to defense rating.

Rationale: for the cost, the unit simply should not be as versatile against all units as it is. There is a nice balancing that it is still vulnerable at range 1. But it still feels like is delivering too much of a punch for the cost.

PLASMA:

Defense increase.

Movement increase by 1.

Passive healing if it means this: after repair is issued, the unit can still move some at reduced rates. No attack though.

Rationale: It doesn’t seem appropriate to increase heal for the Titan race. Doesn’t fit what this race is about. The defense increase would be such that it takes one less damage from tank busters.

TANK:

+1 movement increase.

Defense increase.

Rationale: emphasizes what is already appropriate for this unit. I think adding additional healing capability would be too ridiculous.

PINZER:

+1 movement

Increase defense.

Rationale: this unit is already pretty good. But if the other heavies get increases without this unit enjoying some love, this unit may pout too much. I would not want near one if that happened.

WYRM:

Move after attack

Rationale: moving after attack is pretty powerful. Not sure you would need a heal +1 as well. But it could be added too I suppose.

ECLIPSE:

Amphibian attack +2

Heal +1 maybe. Perhaps passive healing as well so that Titan doesn’t feel too like Khal.

BATTERY/WALKER:

Increase attack damage OR perhaps introduce splash attack damage

Rationale: I really like the balance of cost and the limitations in place for these units. However, if they are falling behind, increasing attack power seems appropriate for these units. Yet, they already hit pretty powerfully. Increasing the damage more doesn't seem interesting enough. Therefore I propose adding splash damage when they strike. That is, when they hit a unit the surrounding units also take some minimal damage. I am thinking the lighter surrounding units take anywhere between 0-2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 21, 2017 19:16

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