changing for guardian

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what you think about these changes?
I like these changes	29%	[ 2 ]
No , it's fine now	71%	[ 5 ]
Total Votes : 7

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Dec 12, 2017 05:27

Subject: changing for guardian

Kwisatz Haderach

Messages: 3,
Joined: Nov 11, 2017,
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I think a guardian is absolutly overpowered unit - it's a combination of enormous attack power againist all types of units , high mobility which allow him easily overcome any terrain to reach and attack almost any of enemy's units , and pretty low cost of building which allow build it almost each turn even on small maps.

If enemy build a guardian all your plans and strategy are ruining because after this moment you have only two ways:
1. destroy or at least serious damage a guardian as soon as possible - otherwise its break through your defence on the next turn;
2. start a massive retreat of all your units which in attack range of guardian - this often prove a begin of loosing game.
Even if you choose to destroy guardian - it's not so easily to do: any more or less experienced player would cover guardian by other unit , even if that covering unit is just a simply mech - you need at least THREE powerful units (like marauder or speeder) to success (two to destroy mech and thrid to attack guardian) - in other words: you need units which cost at least 750 in sum , to deal with couple units which cost only 450 - and it's only if covering unit is simple mech - not something more defended , if it's only one , and it not stay on forest/mountain/base hex. Also many maps just not allow to reach guardian , for example maps with many mountains with narrow passages: enemy could easily block these passages and prevent you to intercept guardian , in same time guardian owing to it's high mobility could easily overcome mountains and attack your units.

I suggest change guardian's attack power to:

light units : 3

heavy units : 2

air units : 3

marine:2

amphibian:3

And change mobility to 6 , but allow guardian to move (and attack) twice , like marauder.

Thus guardian still could cause major damage to all types of units , but only on short range , or it could move even further than now and attack two different targets on its way , but with less damage - in other words guardian could have high movement rate OR high attack power , but not both them at the same time.

Dec 12, 2017 23:11

Subject: Re:changing for guardian

Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
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Quite honestly I don’t have any issue with the balance of the guardian as is.

I think all races have adequate, cost efficient counters to it.

However, despite this, I do like your proposed changes. So I voted yes

As an aside:
I would actually really like to see “guardian does not take damage from other blaster units” added to it, however. I think it is countered crazy effectively by bopper or boarfly... and taking that out of the equation I think would really shift the games dynamics a lot :p ofc guardian would need an accompanying nerf. Maybe this ability in concert with your proposed changes and an increase in cost to 400.....

Dec 13, 2017 15:01

Subject: Re:changing for guardian

The Impaler

Messages: 147,
Joined: Jun 07, 2017,
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Hey, thanks for the suggestion.

Many units (the guardian included) cause some trouble at the lower levels, but require a different play style to combat. It is actually the case that the balance tram was considering buffing the guardian, since at higher level play it is extremely hard to combat effectively.

I recommend watching a few TvS or TvK games from the final or semifinals of tournaments to see if it has as overpowering of a presence, and perhaps it can help you learn how to combat it.

I reccomend utilising its greatest weakness - no recovery. it costs 350, and any 100 or 250 unit can cripple it, making it next to useless.

The best way to learn how to beat "unfair" things in strategy games is to use them yourself. play a bunch of TvS games in ranked and use a lot of guardians. if they are truely overpowered you should win games easily and rank up, and if it is not overpowered, you can watch what your opponents do to stop you. Myself and Spanky McCraken have both proven this method of learning works, and have both made it to 2500+ score (we were both in the top 20)

Member of the balance team
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Current Record: 131W, 14D, 4L
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Dec 17, 2017 13:51

Subject: changing for guardian

Redfog

Messages: 44,
Joined: Sep 04, 2017,
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Since he hasn't written anything about reducing the guardian's cost I can only assume that he is a troll. To anyone unfamiliar with the damage calculations, what he's suggesting is basically that the guardian do:

2.425 damage avg to tanks and pinzers and 2.15 to plasma tanks and an absurdly low amount of damage to anything else.

Yes, he could attack twice but at the cost of a large portion of its mobility (which under realistic circumstances would mean moving 1 tile per action) and making it even more susceptible to counter-attacks.

Anyway, I already gave him more attention than I should have. Let's just ignore him from now on

Edit: replaced"regular" with "realistic"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 17, 2017 13:53

Dec 17, 2017 21:42

Subject: Re:changing for guardian

Kwisatz Haderach

Messages: 3,
Joined: Nov 11, 2017,
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I'm not said about cost reduce because current cost too low for unit with such characteristics (swarm's "action range" and plasma's firepower) , but it would be normal for characteristics which I suggest. Anyway I'm not insist on exactly these values , main idea is make guardian not such "allmighty" - its now strongest anti-tank unit (borfly have higher attack againist heavy units but less in armourpiercing and it can't attack after move or gain a hex's attack bonus , bopper weaker in armourpiercing againist heavy units and it have very specific attack range and due its limited mobility gaining hex's bonus is more complicated , also both of these units much weaker against most of unit types than guardian which very powerful againist all types of units) and it may become even more stronger with hex's bonus , which guardian can gain easily due its high mobility. With suggested changes guardian still could deal approximately same as now damage on maximum distance (move on 3 hex and attack on 2) , but only with hex's bonus.

Dec 17, 2017 23:28

Subject: Re:changing for guardian

Redfog

Messages: 44,
Joined: Sep 04, 2017,
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Sooo.. I may assume that you are serious and are really struggling with the guardian. My assumption is that you do not build enough infantry. Because this is literally the best counter to guardians.

Although the guardian is actually a good all-round unit its greatest weakness lies in its defence. Which is almost non-existent. You have to be very careful when using it and good players will use that to their advantage.

For instance getting a 5 or even a 6-shot out of a tank when having to risk it getting attacked by [Marine/Mecha/Underling] means you have gained nothing. Yeah, that tank is basically unusable for now but it can retreat. Whereas you are sitting on a 4-hp Guardian (or maybe even no guardian at all) which does only tiny bits of damage (1-2) to enemy tanks. So let's count our losses here: got a Tank/Pinzer/Plasma to half hp. so we're talking about 200-250cr assuming it won't get healed and probably another 100cr if your opponent counterattacks with infantry. On your side you lose about 6hp which equals to 60% of your cost (210cr that is). Looks like you gained an advantage but how are you going to prevent the Tank getting healed back up? The scenarios may vary but I can assure you that it's practically a worthless unit without a strong core army to back it up.

If you are still not convinced you can invite me for a game where I play against you without making use of blaster units. If you don't like that either I strongly recommend watching some of the high-level players in tournament quarterfinals to finals.

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