dr. pepper
Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
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dr. pepper
Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
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I personally think buried underlings are too strong especially against Titans. They cost 100 credits and can deal 9 damage to ground light (+3 buried attack) and 6 to ground heavy. It wouldn't be such a big deal if there was actual detection in this game. Posting a number below units to show how many underlings are adjacent is not sufficient when Khraleans have 10+ units buried. I don't have the time or patience to figure out where buried underlings are on every turn. They kill assimilators and engineers in one turn and make it nearly impossible to use batteries or walkers without constantly surrounding your siege units to prevent them from dying to resurfaced attacks.
In Starcraft, every race has the ability to detect buried units. Terran has turrets, comsat station, and science vessels. Zerg has overlords and spore colonies and Protoss has observers and cannons. There is no true counter to players who mass buried underlings and then combine them with pinzers and wyrms. Losing one hit point when ground heavy units land on them is not a sufficient counter.
I personally think assimilators and engineers should be detectors with a limited "sight" range so instead of just seeing the number of buried underlings, I propose that assimilators and engineers would actually DETECT the buried underlings so they're visible. As it stands now, there's very little you can do to actually kill buried underlings besides trying to constantly move your units around to prevent your assimilators/engineers/batteri es/walkers from dying.
If you actually know of legitimate counters to this strategy and you're a high rated titans player who can beat this, please post them. Is it just me or has anybody else noticed there are VERY FEW high rated Titans? Most of the khraleans who employ this strategy are 1950+. Please don't tell me I'm a newbie who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I've reached around 2050 with Sapiens.
Sapiens can sitll just mass copters and use marines with terrain to beat khraleans, but Titans don't have a single air unit and are forced to fight an all-ground war.
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lion37
Messages: 112,
Joined: Jun 13, 2009,
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lion37
Messages: 112,
Joined: Jun 13, 2009,
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dr. pepper,
I actually think that you understate the problem of mass buried underlings.
Some players put a buried underling under *every single* hex.
Its not an issue of seeing them, they are simply everywhere.
The problem is that Titans have no counter until they actually pop and do battle.
I have suggested 2 simple and obvious fixes to this problem:
1) UV blasts hurt buried underlings.
2) Underlings under a heavy unit do not heal.
These are small changes, but at least they will give Titans a fighting chance.
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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I'm sorry but you're just not correct.
Buried underlings are not so easy to use, as they can't move and attack, are slow, and are easily killed once they resurface. They sacrifice mobility and vision for one shot killing power and protection.
Titans can easily deal with them by surrounding walkers with Mecha and Assimilators. When the Underlings pop up, they simply get captured by the Assimilators, then any remnants get nailed by the Walkers, massed UV, and retaliation from the Mecha. It takes two or more buried underlings to kill a Mecha, and they both get damaged - leaving them vulnerable to counterattack. This means the Titan can often kill two underlings for every Mecha he loses. And the icing on the cake is that captured underlings can then be used by the Titan player to block further underground attacks.
So Titans have very good methods to defeat a Khral player using buried Underlings. They don't need anything else. The reason there are fewer Titans in the top ranks is mainly because they require patience rather than spam heli = win
I know at least you lion37 knows all this too well, so I'm not sure why you keep pushing for such changes. Letting UV hurt buried underlings, for example, would be quite unbalancing. And yet you've said yourself that Khrals are underpowered!
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lion37
Messages: 112,
Joined: Jun 13, 2009,
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lion37
Messages: 112,
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Hi Hachiman,
I am enjoying our discussion and am happy to see we are both working to make the game more balanced.
Here are the issues:
Thermopyla is a unique map in that Titans start with a lot of money, have lots of room to grow, all the bases are in one location, and Titans can build up for a while before being attacked.
All these Titan advantages together mean that on that map Titans can just barely survive against Khrals mass underling spam.
On other maps Titans get killed by the underling spam before they can build up.
The problem is that Titans simply have no good answer vs. underling spam. using hordes of Mecha blockers is not a good strategy. Its slow, boring, and means that you are vulnerable to other types of attacks.
Building a road-block with captured underlings will also not work since the Khral player can have an unbroken chain of buried underlings all the way from his base to the Titan base.
I agree 100% that Khrals should in general be made a little stronger in other areas. But the game would be more fun, fair, interesting, and balanced if UV blasts hurt buried underlings.
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Anonymous
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No one cares about this but you.
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Anonymous
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Anonym: You obviously care enough to read our posts and post about it...
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Its slow, boring,
I'm sorry but if you don't like a slow buildup, you are playing the wrong race.
and means that you are vulnerable to other types of attacks.
...right. Like the air, wrym and pinzer attacks you easily nail with your walkers and eclipses?
On other maps Titans get killed by the underling spam before they can build up.
Is that how I just got mauled by a thedon on Chato Hill? Plasma tanks + assims + speeders seemed to do the trick just fine. He didn't even bother with walkers!
The problem is that Titans simply have no good answer vs. underling spam.
I've given you several that you already use very effectively. What answer to Khrals have against captured underling spam?
I agree 100% that Khrals should in general be made a little stronger in other areas.
Then perhaps you should suggest these changes along with the ones you make which would weaken the race further.
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Anonymous
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UV blasts affecting buried underlings would be a neat side effect. But it's just such a non-issue I can't understand why we have to have it brought up in every #@#! thread. No game will be won or lost based on it.
Also, buried underlings are fine the way they are. This is a strategy game so use some strategy instead of suggesting changes. Some things are meant to be difficult to pull off and take more complex planning, and dealing with a mass of buried underlings is one of them. It's also entirely possible to not only fend off buried underling spam but to use it to your advantage as a Titan player. Is it easy? No, but not everything should be. It's not that easy for a khralean player to pull off a a massive underling attack either, by the way. You seem to make it sound like it's instant win when it's far from it.
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Anonymous
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Anonymous: I would point out all the ways in which you are both wrong and a jerk, but it’s not worth my time to embarrass you unless you login first.
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
Joined: Jun 14, 2009,
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
Joined: Jun 14, 2009,
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Anonymous wrote: Anonymous: I would point out all the ways in which you are both wrong and a jerk, but it’s not worth my time to embarrass you unless you login first.
Well, that was unnecessary, don't you think? And maybe you should log in as well, eh?...
Anyway, leaving aside the issue if the first Anon is a jerk or not (I have no opinion on that matter), I think he/she is right that the buried underling issue is more of a non-issue. I have both used this strategy and been abused by it, and as far as I can tell, it is not an automatic game winner by any stretch of the imagination. There are many ways to reduce its effectiveness, including covering every damned hex with a cheap unit (marine or mecha), so they can never pop up - or at least, not en masse. They cannot do much good if they have to stay underground. Yes, it takes some thought and patience. Boo hoo... (Am I a jerk too now?)
Also, I gotta agree that the UV-blast hitting buried underlings is not a solution -- assuming that you think there was a problem to begin with. (Obviously, I don't.) That said, I think its a cool idea -- as well as the idea that assimilators can detect buried units -- but both should be studied for their effect on game balance.
The underling is the weakest light ground unit. Being able to bury it is a game balancer for the Khraleans, who have other weaknesses too. If you want to reduce its effectiveness, I think a simpler and better way would be to reduce their movement allowance while buried. Not being able to heal while underground doesn't seem quite fair. On the other hand, I think it would be fair that underlings don't get the heal bonus from adjacent infectors while they are buried. (And it would make sense too -- how can the buried underling interact with the infector when its underground? I've always wondered that... but maybe I just take this game too seriously...)
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Anonymous
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This is a specific thread set up to talk about an issue that some people care about.
For someone to anonymously post: "No one cares about this but you. " and then for the Anonymous poster to post "But it's just such a non-issue I can't understand why we have to have it brought up in every #@#! thread" - which is simply untrue, its was only briefly mentioned in 2 other threads.
I dont know about you, but in my book, that is how a "jerk" behaves.
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