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New Race Balancing Proposal - Sept 2010
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Do you think this new patch will better balance the game?
YES 47% [ 8 ]
No 18% [ 3 ]
No (I mostly play Khraleans and don't care for Titans) 18% [ 3 ]
Dunno? 18% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 17
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kralux

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kralux

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Here is a proposal for a new patch to better balance the races.

The goal is to better balance Titans with Khraleans when Khraleans make overwhelming use of burried underlings.

1. Increase Cyberunderling stats to make them more useful after their capture. Note that they are typically already very weak by the time they are being captured since they have already attacked another unit.
Ground Light ATK: up from 7 to 8
Aerial ATK: up from 2 to 5
Aquatic ATK: up from 2 to 5
Defense: up from 6 to 8

2. Decrease Burried Underling Resurface Attack bonus by 1 pt from 6 to 5.

3. Increase Assimilator Stats:
Increase Self-Repair from 1 to 2.
Increase Assimilator Defense Strength from 0 to 1.
Decrease the UV cooldown from 11 to 10.

This should improve the game balance even further.
Let us know if you disagree.

The UniWar Team
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nfong

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nfong

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YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!


When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
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Nixflix

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Nixflix

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Oh no! I do not support this patch.
Although I'm not the best player, or even very good at times;
I do like using khraleans very often, I'm not sure why, and Im probably the worst with them out of the other races though
You shouldn't weigh my opinion that much though, people like sphink and nicko would know better.

Sorry if i offended you
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nfong

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nfong

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Humbug, I say. Humbug.

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
Sphink

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Sphink

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Let's see...

The goal is to balance titans and khraleans. More specificly a strat that involves using mass underlings vs a turtleing Titan. But I think you need to look at how it affects the each race match up and see if there is a way to exploit the new changes.

1) an increase in the cyberunderling's stats.

Ground light attack: increased from 7 to 8... I have no problem with that

arial attack: increased from 2 to 5? I think this could be exploited. in a team game where you and your teammate are titans and khraleans cyberunderlings would be very strong vs any air. Since you are assimilating your team mates units they are full health from the start. Along with these other buffs this strat may be a good one

aquatic attack: increased from 2 to 5... How many times do you attack a ship with a cyberunderling? If you pull that off you deserve an attack bonus.

Defence: increased from 6 to 8. They are normaly low health when you get them. And they should be strong since you did capture an enemy unit.


2) decrease buried underling attack to 5 from 6... I think this will affect khraleans vs sapians more then titans. I guess this is to keep a buried underling from 1-hitting a Titan unit? But I think it would make the marines even stronger vs khraleans. Which I'm sure most of us will agree is a slightly unbalanced match up. How about a marine nerf?

3) increase in assimilator stats.

Increase self repair from 1 to 2... Sapian and khralean units both have a self repair of 1.

Increase defence from 0 to 1... Again sapian and khralean units have a defence of 0.

Decrease UV cooldown to 10 from 11... Sapians engineer cooldown is at 15, but EMP might be more usefull then UV? (idk)... And I don't think plague has a cooldown?

What about increaseing the cost of the assimilator from 100cr to 200cr.

That's my opinion right now...

Good luck, Have fun!

My biased opinions are open-minded.
-Sphink
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nfong

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nfong

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um Sphink the assimilator is already 200 credits lol

But I do agree that the assimilator should be worth more...maybe 250 credits?

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
Sphink

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Sphink

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Oh yeah. Might help if I get the facts right... That Changes things alot because now I think with the stat buff (defence, self repair, and UV cooldown) I'd put the price at 275cr? Too odd of a number I know, but what about increasing the defencive strength of the other two races units too? Then an even 250? Just my guess... I don't know how balanced my opinions are though...

Good luck, Have fun!

My biased opinions are open-minded.
-Sphink
Solitary

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Solitary

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Increasing the cost of assimilator after boosting it up is a definate no for me (in response to Sphink) xD. All those changes seem fine to me apart from raising the def of the assimilator, and changes to assimilator are a good way of keeping the power adjustment mostly affecting that matchup. The underling resurface bonus being altered won't affect khrals vs saps so much Sphink as that tends to be mostly marines who will get owned by resurface bonus anyways, and helis which are flying units. I'm mostly not keen on raising the def of the assimilator because I think with the extra power it's just gained then you should be able to one-shot it, as it's a cheap unit anyways. I'm sure that the other changes will level out the matchup quite well by themselves as it's not *that* uneven a matchup to begin with (one of the reasons I liked this game so early on was race balance is far better than in most games of this ilk).

I do agree saps seem to have a bit of an edge over khrals but I'm not sure if it's map related or strategy related, for ages aLoN was representing khrals and answered lion3's challenge in that area quite definitively. One thing I'll say that I don't like about khrals is the unit costing: saps = 100, 200, 250, 400, 500, 550; titans = 100, 200, 250, 400, 500, 750; khrals = 100, 250, 300, 350, 450, 550 and the larger gap between the cheapest unit and the second cheapest unit can make it pretty tough to get going. If I was altering saps vs khrals I would nerf the swarmer slightly and make it cheaper (probably the ground heavy attack and/or the def.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 26, 2010 02:15

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kralux

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kralux

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Guys,

Thanks a lot for your detailed analysis! Much appreciated.
After chatting with the team members and based on your input, we may not make much change if any at all...
We are still playing and analyzing a few matches internally to come to a conclusion.
We'll keep you posted if we decide to make any changes.

Thanks again,

The UniWar Team
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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Kralux and team,

So glad you are still working on this. PLEASE do something to rebalance the game. Probably more than this.

At the moment (on non water maps)

1. Khrals generally beat Titans - massed buried underlings are mostly impossible to counter. How about Lion's old suggestion of UV hurting buried underlings?

2. Sapiens generally beat Khrals - Heli's + Marines together own anything Khral's have if played well. Maybe the Wyrm needs a slightly better air attack, or even the Infector a higher defense?

3. Titans generally beat Sapiens on open maps - Saps can't penetrate a well turtled Titan (unless the bases are very spread out).

4. Saps beat everything on many heavy terrain maps Because terrain supposedly favours infantry but Marines are VERY powerful in terrain, whereas Underlings / infectors get owned by Heli's, and Mecha just get captured by Engineers and have no air unit to back them like the other races.

5. There are several maps that need fixing (or removal) badly. Most obvious are Green Valley (Blue can always win) and Jungle (Saps can always win). Could we maybe have a way to filter specific maps out at least. So sick of scrolling pages and pages of Green Valley 'traps-games'.

1-3 above makes the game like a game of scissors paper rock where the second player knows what the first has picked already, so people abuse 4 and 5 on maps like Jungle, Green Valley, Hurtgen Forest, Forest walk etc to win as blue/ saps. And it makes it pointless to play at the moment.

Thanks so much for giving the game new life!
Solitary

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Solitary

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Did you even read the above posts Hach xD. Raising wyrm air attack when it's already so high is an awful idea as that would allow you basically to one shot a helicopter, which is a 500 credit unit. Wyrms are already very powerful agaiinst helis and if you are at the stage of sniping at them with a wyrm you are also at the stage where you have enough units to have a strategic fight. Also wyrm is at the wrong end of the cost spectrum to equalise the matchup because the issue is controlling marine spam, not helicopters. Likewise, infector is a support unit and if you don't protect it properly then that's kind of your own lookout. Any issues you raise with the maps will be fixed by a level editor which was announced in a future patch and adding new and more balanced maps, atm there's very few balanced maps.

Just my two cents!
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waxoid

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waxoid

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ah, underling resurface bonus is +6? I had heard smaller numbers (+3) in other threads I think, and hadn't tested it. Those guys don't "resurface" they explode out of the ground. Maybe they should do range damage at the same time.

That helps explain why a few of them can tear down a plasma tank. General cheesy use of pop-up bonus seems to me to be a key reason for khral dominating titans, so I'd support the reduction to +5 which is still a pretty big bonus on top of an already nice tactical advantage (burrowing under defenses). Main concern would be the incremental advantage to the marine (main way to reduce marine domination may be just to update the map mix and have more battles with strategic open spaces or at least frickin' *roads* . In battle vs. titans, the decreased underling bonus would mainly incrementally lessen underling ability to tear down advanced hardware so effectively. One implication is that resurfacing underlings would no longer have a guaranteed 1-hit of assimilators on base (tragic).
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waxoid

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waxoid

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oh and random, on general topic of khral/titan balance, it seems like there is an issue at sea, just from the fact that it looks like Garuda spam will always beat Titans on something like Naval War. (am I wrong?) More anti-air for Hydronaut might help but could be unbalancing in other ways (vs. Saps). A "water eclipse" that isn't as good against aquatic is an interesting option, but expanding naval units is a whole 'nother discussion probably. A larger look at aerial unit effectiveness vs. aquatic is probably merited.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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one more thought (sorry) – have you played with the idea of making ground heavy stomp damage do a variable amount of damage between 1 and (less frequently) 2, rather than always -1? Tune the probability to moderate the effect. The nice thing here is the change would more narrowly address the case of ants besieging titans, as tons of ants under sapiens or other khral is rare.
Solitary

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Solitary

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Just out of interest as no-one has addressed this, what's wrong with my idea of nerfing swamer ground heavy damage and making it cheaper? Swarmers do high damage against marines and whilst they are weak against helicopters it's only a big deal atm because you need to kill 2.5 marines to get your money back. What if they had really low ground heavy attack and only cost 200 credits? Hell, even if you lowered their ground light attack or their def by one point as well they'd still be a massive threat if they were that much cheaper to produce as atm a lot of maps are 200 credits/turn and it would allow you to make one a turn.

Given that all other races either have cheap healing or a cheap tank, khrals you have to spend 350 credits for the cheapest unit capable of taking any damage and with swarmer taking 6-9 damage from a full hitpoint heli then you're left without any real way of defending yourself on small maps (attack being another form of defense xD). I don't know how it would affect khral vs khral to do that but I don't really care about that matchup because however people play it then it's still fair. Khral vs titan I don't see a cheaper swarmer being a big deal as it would still be going up against eclipse and would have nerfed ground heavy attack so you wouldn't be able to employ a single unit strategy.

I might be wrong about the key area of imbalance, but if it's wrong I'd be interested in a reason why it's wrong as I think it's a more accurate solution to the khral/sapien matchup than has been posted so far!
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