[Search] Search   [Recent Topics] Recent   [Hottest Topics] Hottest   [Login] Login
A vague ramble about things I find annoying xD.
Forum Index » New Feature Request
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
Since switching to khral I have noticed several things I didn't notice when sticking only to one race and it's actually an annoying limitation not just within the game, but the mentality of ladder players. Only one titan player has not declined me since I switched to khral, and pretty much the only maps hosted by sapiens available to join are very close maps or terrain heavy maps (or close maps which are also terrain heavy :p). The single biggest problem I find with khrals vs saps is that you need to spend 350 credits on the cheapest unit with any defensive value, which means on close maps or heavy terrain maps you will always get overrun very quickly. This brings me onto my first gripe... MOST of the maps are imbalanced in favour of sapiens in saps vs khral, or in favour of titans in titans vs saps, or in favour of khral in khral vs titan.

I offer right now to redesign dead monk, wild plains, chato hill, scramble and laguna niguel and others to follow if there's a chance the adjustments would ever make it into the game (assuming they were voted more balanced by the community).

Gripe number two is that players who avoid particular matchups are not penalised on the ladder, so for example all the titans who declined me joining their games and probably do with every single khral in the game are not negatively affected in their ranking. There needs to be a "smart" ranking system which forces players to forfeit points avoiding a particular matchup. For example if you have ten dead monk games open and one titan player joins all ten then you abandon all of them, you lose nothing. If you have ten dead monk games open and ten different titan players with ten different IP addresses who are all ranked within say 100 points of you join, then you lose 50% of what you would have lost from playing them for each consecutive titan after the 3rd abandonned game in a row (meaning you'd have to play at least one in three titans who challenge you, in practice). I have never in my many years of gaming encountered a crowd of race/map/imbalance/bug abusers as you find in this game, and it's ****ing annoying why people can't just play. There are no (well virtually no) exclusive khral users ranked over 2000 and that's basically because titans decline them all the time and saps only play heavily sap favoured maps (not their fault really, given the many map imbalances).
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
My final bugbear is probably the biggest and that's that with known imbalances all over the place the effort to correct them is pretty half arsed, to be honest. Kralux posted up a propsed fix for khral vs titan and got feedback on that and then we find the next update is a completely random fix for khral vs saps that wasn't discussed in any detail at all on the forums, then kralux vanishes again xD. What's needed is an all in one balance fix to just be discussed by some strong players and then tested out once a general consensus is reached, rather than what's going on now. A full set of changes should be proposed and anyone who says anything nooby about race balance or maps or the game in general in that thread should just have their post deleted and ignored, as balance threads are easily derailed by weak players. Reasons for each suggested modification included and intelligent debate only should be able to sort out at least an improvement on the current balance in pretty quick time, I would have thought >.<.

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
My current ideas for improved race balance:

Saps vs khral fix

Infector cost reduced to 200 and marine air attack put back to 4

Yes I know that's going to cause problems with khral vs titan, but the simple fact of the matter is that khrals unit costing is too weighted towards mid priced units and it's too difficult to slow the marine storm. Helis and marauders can both one shot an infector and there's no early units with good enough def to protect it, so 300 credits basically means you can't afford to build them on most maps as that's on average 1-2 turns worth of credits down with one move from one unit (and zero damage to show for it).

Titans vs saps fix

As well as altering the hundreds of maps with awful choke points I think battery def should be raised to 6 to allow more chances of pushing with batteries without them all dying horribly to walkers + uv. Atm titan only needs two assimilators to trade punches and clean up the survivors with uv in most cases, and it makes pushes impractical. This matchup is not that imbalanced on a lot of maps but I think that small tweak would make a difference in those situations where you know you're just waiting to get walkered to death.

Khral vs titan fix

Probably the hardest one, especially after my fix for sapiens and khral. I thought lowering the eclipse cost to 350 so it's a bit more usable for taking out infectors (and we know it's powerful again swarmers and underlings anyways). Also smash damage to underlings increased to 2, resurface bonus reduced to +4 and UV to affect buried units (as has been discussed in previous threads).


Not saying that's the obvious, best or only answer to the game imbalances but I think it's a decent starting point for a debate at least xD. Thoughts and discussion welcome .


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 06, 2010 08:07

porkus

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 14, 2010,
Offline

porkus

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 14, 2010,
Offline
I'm pobably one of the 'weaker' players you mention, but I've found a decent strat for Khral vs Sap is to use the underlings as meatshields to protect swarmers. It keeps the helis and marines from swamping everything you put out. Therefore, I think an easy fix would be to give the underling an aerial attack of a measly 2. They wouldn't be spectacular at attacking air, but at least on mountains or forests they could do a point of damage to an attacking heli.

Bringing the cost of the infector from 300 to 200 would only be practical if the heal rate was brought down to x2. However, I do not like that idea as I think higher regen is a staple advantage of the khral race. Ranged plague was my very first suggestion, but honestly I'm liking the extra movement points a bit more. Maybe it should be brought up to 9 to make it even more lethal. At first I thought the marine AA should be raised back to 4, but I would much rather have a special ability instead. Mobility seems to be the niche for sapiens, so maybe a special ability could be an extra action usable every 5-10 turns? Seems overpowered since there are already problems on maps like scramble and desolation with mauraders... I dunno.

At this point the balancing issues are obviously more complex than they seem. So far the minor fixes implemented and suggested will provide a solution to one problem only to raise another problem.

I think Kralux already said that UV hitting buried units is unrealistic so it won't be considered. The stomp damage raised to 2 is neat, but honestly I don't think it would help that much and it's more practical to build mechas if going defensive anyways. Maybe mechas could do stomp damage too? I think the first implementation should be to reduce the pop-up bonus to 4 and start from there. Perhaps burrying could have a cool-down of one round?

I completely agree with your suggestion to change the top forest tile to a plain tile on Deadmonk. I haven't seen your suggestions for the other maps though. Turning down rated games could reduce rating by 1-5 points but not count as a loss. It shouldn't be too harsh of a punishment, because, well, it doesn't seem like a crime in the first place I do think that bots should not be allowed in rated games. The player ladder should be reserved for player(s) versus player(s) ONLY. It'd also be nice to implement that change and then reset all scores and ratings so everyone has a fresh start.
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
Intelligent discussion is always welcome anyways, I wasn't trying to discourage posts from that but I see posts all the time about balance with just flat out stupid ideas in them and it gets off topic. UV and smash damage by themselves wouldn't be that big a difference but if you imagine all things together chipping away at buried underlings along with reduced resurface bonus then it would make things far more managable for titans. The reason I suggested cheaper infector rather than better is because it's just too expensive for a non combat unit, considering how expensive everything else is as well. A cheaper eclipse was in my titan suggestions because they can one shot infectors and help control them in titan vs khral, but with the power of buried ants are also not too cost effective. I figured all those little things together should help to keep the swarm under control though.

The reason sap vs khral is more imbalanced than the other two imbalanced matchups is because you can't control the marines when the bases are close together, as all khral units are too expensive. I considered 2 ariel attack for underling as well tbh and it's not a bad idea but I don't think it addresses the biggest problem which is just not being able to get started with khral on most maps vs sapiens.

I've been looking at other maps and dead monk also needs to be slightly larger I think, just by one tile. Another key issue favouring saps who can just spam marines is when your marine never has to not be on terrain or a base. They jump straight onto the central forested area and can walk there in two more turns to be within capturing range of the lower base and still on a forest tile. If the bases were one space back then marines would either be hiking over the mountains or potentially exposed to swarmers when not on terrain! In broad terms I had a lot of ideas for map modifications generally involving reducing terrain and standardising size a little more as the largest and smallest maps both tend to imbalance certain matchups.

MasonC

Messages: 79,
Joined: Apr 06, 2010,
Offline

MasonC

Messages: 79,
Joined: Apr 06, 2010,
Offline
  porkus wrote: I'm pobably one of the 'weaker' players you mention, but I've found a decent strat for Khral vs Sap is to use the underlings as meatshields to protect swarmers. It keeps the helis and marines from swamping everything you put out. Therefore, I think an easy fix would be to give the underling an aerial attack of a measly 2. They wouldn't be spectacular at attacking air, but at least on mountains or forests they could do a point of damage to an attack.

I think underling with a 2 AA would work well but only if it did not get a bones when a underling pops up.
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
And it doesn't stop you just getting run over because nothing you build has any def until you're spending 350 credits a time. On most maps saps can just get their hands on khral too early and two AA for underling wouldn't prevent that as they'd still take 8 damage from heli and then get finished off by marine losing 2hp xD. Base proximity obviously a factor as well but then if you put them too far apart there's the problem you just mentioned of resurface and terrain bonus pushing things too far the other way.

I like cheap infector for simplicity as you take khral vs titans and titans vs saps and in both cases they have to keep their distance with infantry units, saps can do what like with their infantry because infector costs too much (once you factor that it needs protection from the heli so you're losing units before you even get this expensive unit into play).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 06, 2010 13:33

[Avatar]
nfong

Messages: 576,
Joined: Mar 07, 2010,
Location: where it's fun
Offline

[Avatar]
nfong

Messages: 576,
Joined: Mar 07, 2010,
Location: where it's fun
Offline
Nice comments! I have some things to say, but I have to get going
I'll leave some comments here tomorrow.

Btw I'm willing to play you as titans vs krahls if you want




Btw again, if you want to "influence" Kralux's decisions a bit, make a few games with him
Show him that you're good, and he'll listen

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 06, 2010 21:33


When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
I played him once already and was going to rematch with reverse race as I think he was a little shocked by the manner of his defeat, but he forgot what race I was and didn't remake after I abandonned xD.
porkus

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 14, 2010,
Offline

porkus

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 14, 2010,
Offline
What do you think of this as a marine special ability: the marine could have a ranged attack of two with a cooldown of 1 turn. It would give the sapiens a ranged unit other than the battery, and by keeping the AA at 3 it wouldn't be too imbalanced. This way the marine could retain it's AA capabilities by being able to counterattack swarmers every other turn. This would also help in titan battles as well, since the marine could aid in taking out unused assimilators. Perhaps ground light attack could be dropped a point to balance it with the other infantry units.

Forgive me if this idea seems at all stupid, I'm simply brainstorming for marine spl abilities.

The more I think about it, I think reducing infector cost is a splendid idea. Three khralean units already have 2 regen, and by reducing it's heal rate to x2 would allow impossible to kill pinzers to be less challenging for titans. This change along with reducing the cost of the garuda to 300 would give the khrals the momentum they need against saps. Of course garuda stats would need to be modified to the cost change, but so what.
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
On a very basic level the problem with khral against sap on close or terrain heavy maps is not being able to infect marines because your infector will just get mowed down in seconds. Mecha own marines but you can't rush a sap like that because of engineers and likewise ants own mecha with resurface bonus (and much better mobility for gang up bonus), but you need to be careful of assimilator so you also can't just charge in on the surface. Not having that restriction with marines against ants means saps can just pile in with marines and I'm not getting into the pinzer debate, short of the following comment. Apart from pinzers getting trashed by helis without being able to fight back there's also a mobility issue with pinzers which allows saps to threaten multiple bases with multiple helis, while you're stuck with one pinzer defending each base. Maps with a choke don't work much better as helis plus marines on terrain will wipe out pinzers without breaking a sweat anyways.

Personally I think adding a special ability for marines would potentially create imbalances elsewhere as it's a complicated adjustment, and against the original theory behind the races.
Hachiman

Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
Offline

Hachiman

Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
Offline
Hi Solitary,

Thanks for starting the discussion. I think some of your suggestions are good, some confusing. I think it would help if you would state what exactly you think the problem is first, then why your solution would help.

  Solitary wrote:

Saps vs khral fix

Infector cost reduced to 200 and marine air attack put back to 4

Yes I know that's going to cause problems with khral vs titan, but the simple fact of the matter is that khrals unit costing is too weighted towards mid priced units and it's too difficult to slow the marine storm. Helis and marauders can both one shot an infector and there's no early units with good enough def to protect it, so 300 credits basically means you can't afford to build them on most maps as that's on average 1-2 turns worth of credits down with one move from one unit (and zero damage to show for it).


I kind of agree about the Infector to improve Khral vs Sap in terrain. Maybe it should be 250 because it is better than the other races equivalents.

I think the Marine air attack was reduced specifically because of the Sapien dominance in heavy terrain maps problem you noted earlier (I was play testing and discussing that with some of the devs around the time it happened). I think the reason they don't necessarily discuss it on the forums is exactly what you say - it gets confusing very quickly with players of very varied skill levels / bias contradicting each other constantly.

Marine nerf wasn't what I suggested (I suggested the extra Infector movement, and that underlings might attack air ONLY when emerging), but I'm not sure what reverting Marines would do except make that problem worse again.

  Solitary wrote:
Titans vs saps fix

I think battery def should be raised to 6 to allow more chances of pushing with batteries without them all dying horribly to walkers + uv. Atm titan only needs two assimilators to trade punches and clean up the survivors with uv in most cases, and it makes pushes impractical. This matchup is not that imbalanced on a lot of maps but I think that small tweak would make a difference in those situations where you know you're just waiting to get walkered to death.


I think the crux of this matchup is that Saps have to win early with fast mobile attacks, whilst Titans have to hold on and desperately defend early then have the advantage later on if they can manage that.

Assuming that is to stay, I’m not sure improving Batteries is the way to go. The main problem with this matchup seems to be what you mentioned before - Saps are OP in (small) heavy terrain maps, Titans are OP in open terrain with a decent defensive position.

The solution isn’t real easy, especially since it seems that the only changes will be made will be tweaking values (no adding special abilities, changing terrain bonuses etc).
  Solitary wrote:

Khral vs titan fix

Probably the hardest one, especially after my fix for sapiens and khral. I thought lowering the eclipse cost to 350 so it's a bit more usable for taking out infectors (and we know it's powerful again swarmers and underlings anyways). Also smash damage to underlings increased to 2, resurface bonus reduced to +4 and UV to affect buried units (as has been discussed in previous threads).


I don’t think this is right at all. It seems to suggest Khrals are OP vs Titans and need to be nerfed, which actually isn’t true IMHO.

I used to think buried underlings were OP vs Titans, but I have been shown by a much better player that they don’t seem to be. This matchup is actually pretty balanced if you know how to play Titans well (if terrain dependant). I can demonstrate (or you can prove me wrong) if you’d like to challenge me.

  Solitary wrote:
As well as altering the hundreds of maps with awful choke points… // … offer right now to redesign dead monk, wild plains, chato hill, scramble and laguna niguel and others to follow if there's a chance the adjustments would ever make it into the game (assuming they were voted more balanced by the community).


I think you have to accept that with three races that are so different in playstyle, largely affected by terrain, that it is very difficult to also have a large variety of maps that are perfectly balanced. It’s actually very complex, and I’d suggest you become an expert with all three races before you come to any firm conclusions.

I suggested that the maps be made auto self balancing – so if results in a particular matchup on a particular map are lopsided, then the advantaged player automatically gets a handicap of starting credits, until the results even up. They seemed to like the idea, but also have their own, so we’ll see what happens…

Also I will say that I've found the devs very approachable about balance, as long as you are respectful and demonstrate you know what you are talking about in game. It is easy for even very good players to be misguided about some balance issues though, so it takes a careful approach.
Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
Hi again . Okay, the reason I suggested putting marine AA back up is because lowering infector cost is a HUGE change as far as power goes in that matchup. Marine spam would be far higher risk if there were more infectors around to take control of them and I think saps need something to offset that if that change were to be implemented, otherwise I believe the balance would be pushed in favour of khral.

I suggested battery power for saps vs titan as well as map tweaking because on most maps then pushes with mass batteries and a marine/engineer/marauder meatshield seems to be most effective, given the lack of mobility of tanks. Going tank/engineer against titan is like going pinzer/infector as khral against saps, sure it looks okay because it takes a while for you to get run over but because it has no offensive power or mobility then you're literally just running the clock down. Battery def was my idea for allowing more batteries to survive the intitial push and go back for repair rather than everything getting mopped up by one walker hit each then 2 UV blasts to finish. Don't think the matchup is hugely imbalanced but it needs something, I've also considered 1 def point for engineers.

The khral/titan matchup would be influenced by my balance tweak for sap/khral and I suggested the nerf of ninjalings (plus little extra ways of damaging them) and slightly reduced eclipse cost because it would allow titan players to more easily one-shot the infectors with eclipse without it dying (obviously it's always at risk but currently two buried ants can kill an eclipse). At worst they'd be easier to mass to get hits in on the infectors which would be far more commonplace. In any case I don't think my suggestion for reducing infector cost could be implemented without altering the matchup vs titans as well, and eclipse I thought was a good answer to healing units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 07, 2010 23:16

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline

Solitary

Messages: 273,
Joined: Aug 24, 2010,
Offline
Map balance is complicated but in broad terms there is an "ideal" size and amount of terrain and whilst it seems inevitable to have some imbalances it's also easy to identify huge general flaws in map design. If a standard amount of terrain/choke/whatever was taken as a set of guidelines for map design then it would make the issue of balance easier rather than the current setup, which is horrible. The differences between the maps are so huge that it seems impossible to avoid map imbalance at some point because you can't adjust the race stats to allow both jungle and thermopyle to be balanced at the same time, for example.

I'm on holiday for a few days anyways which is why I cleared my current game list out but I will be back soon to continue the discussion xD.
Hachiman

Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
Offline

Hachiman

Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
Offline
Saps / Khral - yeah maybe - kinda doubt it though because Heli's will still own. It does take away from the Marines bad-assery to have them nerfed like curently though. And bad ass Marines do feel right.

Saps / Titans. In an ideal world that build is too late IMHO. On small maps Sapiens should be blitzing to stop Titans getting to Walkers safely, and on large maps they should be out using superior speed to defeat in detail. If Titans get to protected, well positioned Walkers Saps SHOULD lose to them.

Khral / Titan - It ain't broke so ...
Forum Index » New Feature Request
Powered by JForum 2.1.9 © - 2020-04-14 v124 - UniWar website