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Swarrrm

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Swarrrm

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I tried a couple KvS games on Chato and Hurtgen and got destroyed. My opponents were all 1970+ though and I'm only 1870 or so. I can beat 2000+ ranked Titans and often good/decent Sapiens with a wyrm rush on Dead Monk (I often lose with it too, but I at least feel I have a chance). Underlings and gaurda just seem to get destroyed by marines and helis. So if this strategy works for you, I must be making some serious tactical errors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 20, 2010 18:22

MasonC

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MasonC

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  Isolation wrote:
4. Don't build pinzers or infectors. There's rare occasions when that rule is safe to avoid but in most cases the infector won't pay for itself and pinzers will just sit there eating hits from helicopters while you watch unable to move or counterattack because you spent all your credits on pinzers and an infector to heal it.


Well I am not as good as you but I find that a pinzer can help I have got a win against a 1800 rated player on deadmonk(it would be low for you but a good hundred points above me)by make a pizer as my first unit! Because it takes two helicopters to take one pinzer and even then it will be slow and I can attack with my are units and get the first strike. What happened in my game was they did not want to spend all there time trying to bring down my pinzer so they left it but then my pinzer all the way up next to there bases and beat any marine that was made and without marines the helicopters were weak.
I can't say that it is the best strategy but I would not say pinzers are no good vs sapiens if you want a game to test thing then I will be happy to except but I don't have a good rating so you don't have to.
Solitary

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Solitary

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Send invite to this account MasonC . I believe Pinzer to be too slow and especially so on dead monk xD.
Xenai

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Xenai

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"I tried a couple KvS games on Chato and Hurtgen and got destroyed."

Part of the problem might be that you're going first on Chato. I don't have much experience with the map myself, but I believe red has a distinct advantage there (Solitary can you confirm?)
Solitary

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Solitary

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You are swarmmmm, lol. Only one sapien has ever beaten me on hurtgen forest xD. You need to spam and bury loads of underlings before they have a chance to fill the map with helis and then once they get close with a single heli you make your first garuda. You should be able to get ninjalings up the map as well to watch what the sapien builds. Hurtgen forest isn't a khral map, it's just a map where sapiens don't really have an advantage over khral as they can't get their troops in to run you over in the first three turns like most maps! Also because your credits per turn is double the number of bases you have then marine spam isn't overpowering like on other forested maps :o.

And yea, I already posted up about chato hill and the easiest way to confirm is to play same race matchups there and you'll find yourself behind every time as blue. Because of the start setup not being able to capture first turn as blue then red has a 200 credit advantage rather than 100 credit and it can be pretty tough to overcome so I just play chato hill as red >.<. It's also critical as khral because once the helis are out in force you can't really make underlings that easily so not having that base early on means you're getting overrun by helis too early. I'm going to add some bits to the guide soon but using this as a basis I am around 2040 now with over 40 wins and 3 losses!

This strategy is highly dependant on placing buried underlings well and I can't stress that enough.
Isolation

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Isolation

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I'm assuming that game solves the pinzer debate on your side MasonC? Dead Monk is sapien favoured anyways but the problems you encountered with your pinzer being a big fat waste of space occur on most maps, pinzer is too expensive in that matchup for what it does xD.
MasonC

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MasonC

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Yes it does
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Nicko

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Nicko

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Yuh pinzer are indeed kinda useless against saps, only effective if the enemy spams marines but even then he'd suck against helis so they would suck afterwards. Doesn't mean they suck tho.
Anyways yeah I did recently (not so much now) mixed saps in my games, I like the extra firepower they pack
But I still play khrals more than I play saps, at least this is how I see it. Also thanks for saying I'm highest khral player but I don't think that's true, at least I'm the highest active? I dunno, I prefer to be modest

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Solitary

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Solitary

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I'm going to try titans once I get over 2100 with khral and then see what conclusions I get about races after playing titan to over 2100. Khral against sap is a matchup I'm going to do a big post on at some point though as I need to put into words exactly why I think it's unbalanced. It just sucks that saps can do almost anything they like agaisnt khral and have a chance of winning whereas khral you need perfect unit selection and very accurate prediction of the sapiens next moves in order to even get a chance. It's wrong to need such a high level of skill, prediction, and luck against a race that basically just needs to mix two units in different ratios then walk forwards!!!

I'm actually really struggling atm against a player with an incredibly clumsy advance, just because by moving everything to illogical places he avoided every single one of my buried underlings with his marines xD.
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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So you've changed your mind about the recent balance change making Khrals too good vs Saps then Solitary?
Isolation

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Isolation

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50ish wins, 5 losses and comfortably over the 2000 mark xD. I'm finding it easier to rack up wins with khral than with sapiens because as high rank saps you're pretty much exclusively playing titans and that's not a good matchup for saps. It takes a lot more skill to beat sapiens with khral than it takes to beat khral with sapiens though which is kind of an odd issue with "balance" right there.

2 losses against titan, 1 against sapiens, 1 loss against khral and 1 loss testing out that 3 min turn skipping thing that was discussed in map specific strategy thread. I suspect a 3rd loss against titans is impending and got a really odd imbalanced position which could go either way agaisnt kralux on hurtgen forest, after screwing up my underling placement while drunk >.<.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 27, 2010 04:23

Hachiman

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Hachiman

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So in short (with equal skill and with several maps based exceptions):

Sap > Khral
Titans > Sap

And I think you'll discover the third:

Khral > Titans

When you start with Titans.
Solitary

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Solitary

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Khrals and saps is an odd one though xD. On balanced maps I think it's not so bad but the random element can totally screw khral over in a way that doesn't happen with the other two races, also there's potential for luck in covering buried units. For example if you hit a heli with two garuda and +2 gangup bonus then most times it will die but on the few times it doesn't then you've badly weakened two units for no gain, or you lose another tempo and screw up your attack. Also 10hp garuda will mostly kill 5hp heli but if it doesn't then again you often don't have the tempo available to stop from becoming disadvantaged.

Titans and saps both have less of an issue in that area because they have more units which can move after attack or attack with range so they have better strategic options from unlucky combat results. If you get unlucky with your garuda against helis then it's stuck right in the front row waiting to get mowed down by marines, and there's no real way to compensate for it.
Xenai

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Xenai

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The more I play the more I feel like there's too much luck involved. The difference between killing a unit and getting it to 1 health is just so huge.
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Swarrrm

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Swarrrm

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  Solitary wrote: You are swarmmmm, lol. Only one sapien has ever beaten me on hurtgen forest xD. You need to spam and bury loads of underlings before they have a chance to fill the map with helis and then once they get close with a single heli you make your first garuda. You should be able to get ninjalings up the map as well to watch what the sapien builds. Hurtgen forest isn't a khral map, it's just a map where sapiens don't really have an advantage over khral as they can't get their troops in to run you over in the first three turns like most maps! Also because your credits per turn is double the number of bases you have then marine spam isn't overpowering like on other forested maps :o.

And yea, I already posted up about chato hill and the easiest way to confirm is to play same race matchups there and you'll find yourself behind every time as blue. Because of the start setup not being able to capture first turn as blue then red has a 200 credit advantage rather than 100 credit and it can be pretty tough to overcome so I just play chato hill as red >.<. It's also critical as khral because once the helis are out in force you can't really make underlings that easily so not having that base early on means you're getting overrun by helis too early. I'm going to add some bits to the guide soon but using this as a basis I am around 2040 now with over 40 wins and 3 losses!

This strategy is highly dependant on placing buried underlings well and I can't stress that enough.


Yeah, I know you know what you're talking about, I was just fishing for more advice. I've been winning more often than not on Hurtgens lately. I was building too many gaurda initially I think. Chato is tougher because the sapiens can turtle their helicopters much easier, but with some practice I think I'll figure it out. And Montevideo is fun: I love to Pearl Harbor the enemy's seaport with buried underlings.

Any other maps you like for Khrals? Wild Plains? Jungle? Forest Walk? I'm experimenting with Marshes and Rocky at the moment.
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