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lion3

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lion3

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  nfong wrote: I think Titans should beat Krahls now on Dead Monk.
I played Ismael before, and he was excellent with Titans. He knew exactly where each of my ants were :3


Thanks for the suggestion. I send Ismael a game invitations for DeadMonk and Wildplains Khrl vs. Titan.

I do think that DeadMonk and Starvation are probably the 2 most balanced maps in the game. But most other maps are far less balanced, with the majority of maps not balanced at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 17, 2011 05:27

lion3

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lion3

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  nixoncc wrote: One possible solution - More Races, or random race assignment


I am 100% in favor of more races, but those will also never be balanced with the existing races.

Random race assignment will never work unless the maps are fully balanced.
You start a random game and get to play on the WildPlains map.
Game is over before it ever starts.
We know the Titans will beat Saps, Saps will beat Khrls, and Khrls will beat Titans.
whats the point of even playing it? We know exactly how it will play out.
The only lesson is to not start random games anymore.
This is just 1 example, but for almost all maps-race combinations, the winner is known before the game ever begins.

Note: please don't reply that Saps can beat Titans on Wild-Plains, etc. They cannot. If you need proof, send me a game invite.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 17, 2011 02:54

Gilgamesh

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Gilgamesh

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  lion3 wrote:
We know the Titans will beat Saps, Saps will beat Khrls, and Khrls will beat Titans.
whats the point of even playing it? We know exactly how it will play out.
The only lesson is to not start random games anymore.
This is just 1 example, but for almost all maps-race combinations, the winner is known before the game ever begins.

Note: please don't reply that Saps can beat Titans on Wild-Plains, etc. They cannot. If you need proof, send me a game invite.





Thing is, sometimes it's a bit more complex than you think, even for pro-players. For example I'm pretty sure red Titans can always beat blue Khrals on Wild Plains. I can't invite you to a matchup with me playing second, so feel free to invite me if you want to confirm or dispute.

Well implemented starting credit map handicapping based on statistical win/loss between highly (and closely) ranked players would be a good fix to the general problem though, and would allow a wider variation of balanced map types....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 17, 2011 18:02

lion3

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lion3

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  Gilgamesh wrote:
Thing is, sometimes it's a bit more complex than you think, even for pro-players. For example I'm pretty sure red Titans can always beat blue Khrals on Wild Plains. I can't invite you to a matchup with me playing second, so feel free to invite me if you want to confirm or dispute.


Ok, I sent you a game invitation.

Even if you are right, and due to some quirk in the WildPlains map red Titans beat Blue Khrals, it still does not change my point that the map is not balanced. It still means that every time you start a random game and get blue khrls vs red titans, there is no point in the game. May as well just surrender before even moving.

Gilgamesh

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Gilgamesh

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  lion3 wrote:

Even if you are right, and due to some quirk in the WildPlains map red Titans beat Blue Khrals, it still does not change my point that the map is not balanced. It still means that every time you start a random game and get blue khrls vs red titans, there is no point in the game. May as well just surrender before even moving.



Oh I agree with your general premise and proposed solution.

It's just a side note that specific examples in this game can be problematic, because it can be deceptively predetermined and testing is often problematic (for example you can't test a second player scenario at will). This actually makes the problem worse, because you can come easily come across a player who has worked out a quirk where they can always win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 18, 2011 10:23

lion3

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lion3

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  lion3 wrote:
  nfong wrote: I think Titans should beat Krahls now on Dead Monk.
I played Ismael before, and he was excellent with Titans. He knew exactly where each of my ants were :3


Thanks for the suggestion. I send Ismael a game invitations for DeadMonk and Wildplains Khrl vs. Titan.

I do think that DeadMonk and Starvation are probably the 2 most balanced maps in the game. But most other maps are far less balanced, with the majority of maps not balanced at all.


Ok, just an update on this. As you suggested, I played Dead-Monk with me as Khrls against Ismael as Titans. Ismael is an excellent Titan player, and I have great respect for his play. However, I easily won the match. At no point was it ever even close.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 19, 2011 13:30

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nfong

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nfong

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Can you accept my invite, lion? :3

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
revofpodus

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revofpodus

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Does anyone play anymore. Seriously who cares.. I haven't seen a rank above 1800 online since the first update.. Game was fair.. Yes if u were less experienced u lost.. And who fucking changed to scoring... I get 4 points off beating a 1790 but lose 16 .. Seriously .. Stupid fuckerz
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nfong

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nfong

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There are many 1800+ players still active...I can name around 20 right off the bat, and there's probably a bunch more...

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
whisper

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whisper

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Lion's suggestion to use credits to compensate for racial disadvantages on map is a good idea.

Map pairings where one side cannot lose and the other cannot win is a weakness in an otherwise great strategy game. Lion, thanks for a suggestion to address the issue.
guruguru

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guruguru

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I agree with everything said here, but I do want to throw out there that this is, in the end, a cheap mobile phone game designed by a small team that sold respectably but probably didn't make all that much money. (Or maybe they made millions, what do I know.)

Maybe there's just a point where you get too good for it, since it may be too much to expect them to put the man hours in to balance it for the top tier of veterans. For casual players who don't know all of the tricks even some of the more unbalanced maps are a relatively fair fight; it's only when you get a few months in that the lopsidedness of certain races and fights become really obvious.. Unless of course someone spells them all out for you. And a few months or more is pretty good for a game of this nature, getting a year and a half of gameplay like a lot of people have is amazing.

That said, here's hoping there's a Uniwar 2 where they learned the balance lessons of Uniwar 1. I just don't expect any major under-the-hood work to be done on this game any more.
lion3

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lion3

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  guruguru wrote: I agree with everything said here, but I do want to throw out there that this is, in the end, a cheap mobile phone game designed by a small team that sold respectably but probably didn't make all that much money. (Or maybe they made millions, what do I know.)

Maybe there's just a point where you get too good for it, since it may be too much to expect them to put the man hours in to balance it for the top tier of veterans. For casual players who don't know all of the tricks even some of the more unbalanced maps are a relatively fair fight; it's only when you get a few months in that the lopsidedness of certain races and fights become really obvious.. Unless of course someone spells them all out for you. And a few months or more is pretty good for a game of this nature, getting a year and a half of gameplay like a lot of people have is amazing.

That said, here's hoping there's a Uniwar 2 where they learned the balance lessons of Uniwar 1. I just don't expect any major under-the-hood work to be done on this game any more.


I agree with everything you said. After 2 years of playing this game, I still occasionally learn something new. I do not expect the development team to put in any large further game development effort. However, there are some small improvements and fixes that are years overdue by now and should only take minimal work and effort.

For example, isn't it time we had a way to reject game invitations?

Adding 20 new maps would revitalize the game and cannot be more than 2 days work (we already have many map suggestions in these forums). If you are worried about the maps not being balanced, just make them all unrated.

Adding 2 new races cannot take much work (although balancing them will take a ton of work). So just add them and limit them to unrated games. This would completely revitalize the game and give us another 2 years of playing. My suggestion for new races is: undead (skeleton, zombie, vampire, lich, etc) and mystical (elves, dwarfs, gnomes, ogres, trolls, etc). I could come up with reasonable stats and abilities in 2 days work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 25, 2011 01:45

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TheOwner

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TheOwner

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What you talkin' bout foo'? While many of the maps aren't perfect, Saps vs. Khrals is almost always very balanced. Titans and Saps are becoming more balanced, but as of now Titans > Saps. Khrals vs. Titans is kinda Khral favored, but most maps you CAN get a balanced game. You can always be beat by the 'weaker' race even if you think you have a perfect strategy. There is ALWAYS a counter, when there isn't the map cant be rated.

I was gonna say 'You been owned' but that makes me sound cocky... so um... ya...
Gilgamesh

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Gilgamesh

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  guruguru wrote: I agree with everything said here, but I do want to throw out there that this is, in the end, a cheap mobile phone game designed by a small team that sold respectably but probably didn't make all that much money. (Or maybe they made millions, what do I know.)

Maybe there's just a point where you get too good for it, since it may be too much to expect them to put the man hours in to balance it for the top tier of veterans. For casual players who don't know all of the tricks even some of the more unbalanced maps are a relatively fair fight; it's only when you get a few months in that the lopsidedness of certain races and fights become really obvious.. Unless of course someone spells them all out for you. And a few months or more is pretty good for a game of this nature, getting a year and a half of gameplay like a lot of people have is amazing.

That said, here's hoping there's a Uniwar 2 where they learned the balance lessons of Uniwar 1. I just don't expect any major under-the-hood work to be done on this game any more.


I agree with you too. However the devs still seem interested in further tweaks to make the game more balanced, so it's a still useful discussion.

One other thing I suggested to Kralux a while back was to upgrade the game (a new (naval) unit per race, retina display / ipad resolution and a few new maps) and charge a fee as an add on. The host needs the add on, or it plays with the basic game. I'm pretty sure almost all the veterans would pay $5-$10 for that. We have got a lot out of the game after all.

[edit] Hell, if they opened a paypal account and asked I'd give them $10, just to keep the game going...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 30, 2011 16:12

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guolin

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guolin

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Eh, most of the frugal iPhone gamers out there cringe at the thought of a $5-$10 in-app purchase, however epic it may be. Even if it was $1, some gamers would likely complain and leave the game, even though it's ONE MEASLY BUCK! (gasp) Somehow, I think quite a few gamers would rather donate $10 out of their heart rather than pay $1 for an add-on. But yeah, the devs really need the money, given their efforts to fight an almost-hopeless cause of balancing the game AND maintaining server upkeep. I mean, the app itself only costs $1, and it was even made free for a day!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 30, 2011 19:48

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