japhib wrote:I agree that if Sapiens were to be given a cheap tank-busting unit that could even more easily fight speeders and plasma tanks, the balance of SvT would be thrown completely in favor of Sapiens. I don't think it's a good option.

Instead, the sniper/commando seems to fill the same tactical niche without ruining the matchup completely. A GL unit that could cloak and would have a range of 2 could sneak up to the Titan tank line without dying to walker fire, and either snipe or heavily damage both walkers and assimilators. This would just continue and make more interesting the Sapiens' current strategy against Titans, which seems to be outmaneuvering them so they can't get or protect a walker.

This would also be beneficial against Khraleans and give interesting counter play against infectors, pinzers, and swarmers, all of whom are the current bane against marines.

Since he's a sniper and not just a juiced up marine, he needs to have range of 2 and not 1-2 because if anyone gets close enough to his position, he's toast. Although maybe he should have a very low anti-air attack because otherwise he could tip the balance of SvS by being too hard of a counter against helicopters. Idk what the best option is but it might be nice for Saps to be able to poke (for just 1 damage) at helicopters from 2 range but definitely no higher damage than that. Maybe be able to trade evenly with Swarmer.

Because he's a counter to a high value target like walkers and the medical unit of each race, he should be more expensive than the grunt of each race. Because he's probably going to die a lot because of uncloaking near the enemy front line to attack his targets, he shouldn't be too expensive. I'd suggest maybe 250.

  japhib wrote:Good point, cloaking ability and 2 range is pretty valuable.

What would you guys think of another GL unit for Titans as well? On small maps that have a lot of forest and mountains, TvS is a bit of a nightmare for Titans because mechas, the only ones getting the same bonus as Marines on forest/mountain, can get easily stolen by cheap Engineers. Titan's other normal combat units, speeder and plasma, get a huge defense penalty on forest tiles and can't go on mountains. On top of that, plasmas are REALLY expensive.

The GL unit for Titans I have in mind could have a special ability like a radiation bomb that poisons enemy Saps and Khrals with radiation, which would be like the plague. This could either be a special ability like the Infector's plague, or it could automatically apply the radiation to any unit it attacks. Cost 250-300, stats otherwise similar to mecha, maybe a tiny bit stronger.

This ability would give counterplay against Sapiens and Khrals who have a strong tank or Pinzer line, which normally are almost unbreakable early-mid game against a walker-less Titan player because of their 2 repair rate vs plasma tanks' 1. In conjunction with Titan's teleport ability, this could also be really nice with teleporting behind a tank line and inflict some damage on artillery and medical units.

Overall it would also be nice for Titans to have more low-cost options for early in the game or for maps where you only get 200 credits per turn.

Sims mentioned area of effect damage and while that would be cool, I think we already have this cool plague mechanic that is a bit underused and gives AOE damage without requiring a lot of new logic for Xavi to program in.

  japhib wrote:Exactly my point ... When you get 200 credits a turn, to make 2 tanks and a walker it takes (500 + 500 + 750)/200 = 9 turns. Longer if you've fiddled around with speeders and mechas before going for the big stuff.

On the other hand, for a Sapiens to make 3 marines + engineer + battery on the same map it takes (3 * 100 + 200 + 650)/200 = 6 turns. That's 3 turns of them bombarding you before you can really do anything ... And after that, if their engineer gets close enough, it can EMP your plasmas and make them useless for a whole 'nother turn. Another very common strategy is for Saps to make a line of tanks against the line of plasma tanks, and since their repair rate is higher, especially if they have an engineer, the wall is nigh unbreakable, and a heck of a lot cheaper than the same width of wall from Titans. That is, for every 2 Titan plasmas there are, the Sapiens can get 2 tanks and an engineer. With that engineer, the Sapiens can make their tanks almost invincible, AND have an EMP to disable the plasmas for a turn, giving them a bunch of free damage. A plague that could damage those tanks 1 per turn would make this easier on Titans. It might not be the fix-all end-all, but at least Titans would have options when they're strapped for cash.

This is the map I'm talking about if you want to have a look.

Maybe it's just an unbalanced map for Titans. But if they had some other unit that
a) was relatively cheap
b) couldn't get stolen by engineers
c) could fight decently on forest tiles,
it opens up tons of maps like this one for the opportunity to be balanced.

Right now, Titans' win condition is a walker, and a line of plasma tanks. Saps' & Khrals' strategies revolve around stopping Titans from getting to that point. My point is that on some maps, it's just way too easy to stop Titans from amassing that much money because the amount of money per turn is so low. Titans need some other, cheaper units to deal damage, prevent harassment, and do some harassment of their own so that their win condition is more plausible.

On top of that, it's boring to have so many turns on a small map where you just hit "next turn" and don't do anything because your mechas will only get stolen by engineers, so you just have to wait for 300 more credits for a plasma tank.

  LkASr wrote:no, plasmas can obliterate through anything in numbers, they're durable enough to survive lethal blows and retreat for repairs. All they need is another gl to make up for expenses.

  japhib wrote:

That's what I'm saying, a cool new GL for Titans to fill in the money gap and get work done on the map before you can afford a plasma.

I like your Commando idea a lot, the idea of them being able to capture a base and stay is really interesting. The added mobility would be really nice too. But, 8 defense, higher than 7 of a marauder? Not sure about that ... A marauder should be able to kill one fairly easily that it catches camouflaged. Commando would be 5/8 vs 8/7 marauder, I feel like they should be a bit more fragile than that in order to be balanced.

  OGKush wrote:I like some of the ideas in there.
My opinion concerning saps:

They need an anti GH unit and a mid range unit.
The idea of the ghost is pretty amazing, but let's be honest, snipers setting tanks on fire isn't realistic. Also I personally don't like the idea of having 2 exact same abilities named differently. Maybe ghost could attack while cloaked, or ignore enemy zone control (just like they were EMPed).

The idea of heavy commando mentioned earlier is interesting, some kind of anti GH unit.. I would just like to give an idea for it. Some of you may know about these special hunting bullets that shred into meat and get larger as they go deeper. Maybe it could be adapted here and get increasing damage when enemy has more health (anti hero unit too somehow).

Another good idea is the bomber, nothing new but this unit with something like 2 range and 9 movement would just do it fine.


About khrals:

This amphibious unit, salamander, crocodile, looks good. The idea of giving it reinforced stats in swamps is also great.

But as said before, if we need some more AA this unit may not totally fit in. What about a spinelisk (or just hydralisk), dealing high GL and AA damage from like 2 range. Some kind of squishy eclipse.

About tits:

I honestly am not amazed by the style of this race (protoss op right?) but got used to it. And now there is a unit that could fit in. A support unit, rather expensive that would passively mitigate/neglect all ranged attacks directed on its neighbors allies. Some kind of guardian shield. The unit would also move, or heal its neighbors by 1 hp. I first thought of this unit for saps, but they need more important things now.



I don't think saps need another navy unit. Destroyer is an allrounder and I feel like adding one more would feel wrong.

Khrals could use of a new water unit, either amphibious or long ranged low damage, either way, able to apply armor reduction to their target.

Tits could sure be good with a new sea unit, some kind of punchbag, but I feel like it would be difficult to balance.